Vets and Suspision

egoldstein said:
Given the number of zoos who've had companions die from pyo, I'm not sure I agree it's so spottable; it can be, but not always. I've seen 2 vets miss it. It doesn't take long for pyo to kill, if one is lucky and catches it early it's jst an enormous vet bill. That's a big gamble for high-risk breeds; is it worth that gamble? It is for some. I'm not saying everyone should, I just want people to understand the risks because so often in these threads people argue there aren't any and it's just done for convenience. I've posted it before, but here's a link to a study on the incidence of pyometra.

Not expecting any answers, but serious question for eveyone with a bitch, do you know what to look for?
Unless a person is in the habit of palpating, would they even know if something was off? "Is it supposed to feel like that?"
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And the ethical question that comes into play here is - is it worth the risk, just so you can have sex with your pet?

People are latching onto existent but minimal risks associated with spays and neuters as reason not to do it. The fact is that the risks of NOT spaying or neutering are more severe. They're using pet lust as a reason to justify it, whether they want to admit it or not. That their pet's satisfaction in life is greatly improved if they can fuck you or you can fuck them. They're dogs - the happiest they'll EVER be is laying their head on your lap while you pet them. My dog still likes his dick sucked despite being neutered. No, it's not as fun as it would be if he were intact. Agreed. But who is it about? Me or him? He sure as hell seems to enjoy it regardless... should I keep him intact just so he cums all over me, for MY satisfaction? Because that's the buried logic of some people here.
 
silvershadow777 said:
They're dogs - the happiest they'll EVER be is laying their head on your lap while you pet them.
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... they're individuals. There may be a bell curve but you are in no position to know what makes every dog in the world happiest and even if that was their favorite activity that doesn't mean other things aren't valuable.

silvershadow777 said:
Agreed. But who is it about? Me or him?
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Both

silvershadow777 said:
Should I keep him intact just so he cums all over me, for MY satisfaction?
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Perhaps having your dick sucked only comes second to pets if you've been castrated.

silvershadow777 said:
Because that's the buried logic of some people here.
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You assume too much.
 
silvershadow777 said:
The fact is that the risks of NOT spaying or neutering are more severe.
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Can be, not necessarily are; it greatly depends on a number of factors that need to be taken into account on an individual basis.
It is important to not lose sight of the fact that for some, spaying can have serious, life-threatening consequences as well as being a source of life-saving consequences.

I don't think it is unethical to leave a bitch intact, especially if they are not a high-risk breed. That said, and the points I keep stressing are there there ARE risks; many of those risks become greater as she ages. It is not just about convenience; anyone who says otherwise is woefully ignorant. Anyone who's deciding to keep an intact bitch who doesn't know the early signs of pyometra needs to learn ASAP.

There are trade offs and reasons to spay and not to spay that need to be figured out with the bitch's best interests in mind. It's OK to want sex, I do. It's OK to choose to not modify a healthy dog who's not a high risk, but one needs to understand the risks and reevaluate year after year. It's not selfish to think, "Holy shit that could suck, I don't want that.", but it is when that is your primary motivator, your primary motivator should be, "I love this bitch, I do not want to lose her; I should make informed decisions about her health, even if it sucks for me."


Pyometra - American College of Veterinary Surgeons

www.acvs.org www.acvs.org
www.dvm360.com

Canine pyometra: Early recognition and diagnosis

Find out what you need to know to identify pyometra as early as possible.
www.dvm360.com www.dvm360.com

It's OK to not know, we're all ignorant until we learn. Want me to shut up? Stop repeating the bullshit about it being only about convenience, smack that shit down when you see it and help educate the community. I expect more from zoos, we're supposed to care and love our companions more than non-zoos; step up.
 
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silvershadow777 said:
And the ethical question that comes into play here is - is it worth the risk, just so you can have sex with your pet?
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kinda narrow minded to think it's only about sex. surely there is a more logical reason to not permanently fuck up a dog's hormone levels. "sex" is probably not the reason why castration is considered mutilation and thus considered as an illegal procedure on healthy animals without a "special reason" permit in countries like germany.
egoldstein said:
There are trade offs and reasons to spay and not to spay that need to be figured out with the bitch's best interests in mind. It's OK to want sex, I do. It's OK to choose to not modify a healthy dog who's not a high risk, but one needs to understand the risks and reevaluate year after year. It's not selfish to think, "Holy shit that could suck, I don't want that.", but it is when that is your primary motivator, your primary motivator should be, "I love this bitch, I do not want to lose her; I should make informed decisions about her health, even if it sucks for me."
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probably the most sensible approach. health should always come first. regular check ups and do what needs to be done if the time comes. my girl is spayed since earlier this year, because i obviously love her way more than i love fucking her. i still think just castrating for the sake of it being "the normal" thing to do in some parts of the world is very wrong.
egoldstein said:
It's OK to not know, we're all ignorant until we learn. Want me to shut up? Stop repeating the bullshit about it being only about convenience, smack that shit down when you see it and help educate the community. I expect more from zoos, we're supposed to care and love our companions more than non-zoos; step up.
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spaying/neutering a with no signs of anything is only about convenience. i know it's wishful thinking, but knowing what to look for (especially with higher than normal risk breeds) should be a given when getting one.
 
nekdoneco123 said:
probably the most sensible approach. health should always come first. regular check ups and do what needs to be done if the time comes. my girl is spayed since earlier this year, because i obviously love her way more than i love fucking her. i still think just castrating for the sake of it being "the normal" thing to do in some parts of the world is very wrong.
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Some girls are still up for it and capable, but there are a lot of variables. There's a thread here somewhere on the topic if you haven't seen it.
Even when it isn't an option, you're absolutely right that sex is not as important and I agree wholeheartedly that spay/neuter because the person is too lazy or ignorant to do otherwise is wrong.


nekdoneco123 said:
spaying/neutering a with no signs of anything is only about convenience. i know it's wishful thinking, but knowing what to look for (especially with higher than normal risk breeds) should be a given when getting one.
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But it isn't common knowledge; this thread and many others show that this understanding is not as common as it should be. I get it, most of us don't get veterinary training and sad as it is, the standard of understanding necessary to become responsible for a life is often nothing more than meeting the purchase price. I don't think anyone here willfully doesn't give a shit, we're merely ignorant, myself included and we, as a community, need to step up and speak up about this stuff or it's going to continue to be a problem and unsuspecting zoos are going to see their beloved companions die miserable deaths. I'm not wagging my finger at people saying, "Tsk, tsk you are aren't as good as me", my passion comes from experience, there's a reason I know 2 vets can miss pyo and I really wish I had followed my gut and gone to a third (fourth, fifth,...). My motivation is to save a life and a whole lot of needless misery. We need to challenge one another to do more and be better; not to judge but point out problems so things can be improved. I want non-zoos to see that zoos are better caretakers and to do that we need to help the community learn.
 
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silvershadow777 said:
Though it would seem that you are in a position to decide that it's OK to keep them intact just so you can fulfill a fetish.
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Canines don't exactly come out of their mother's womb spayed and neutered. It's something that you, as the species with the larger prefrontal cortex and higher EQ ratio, decided to inflict upon the animal through preconceived justifications.

As mentioned, there are legitimate reasons for keeping a canine intact and there are legitimate reasons for spaying and neutering canines as well. Both have their ups and downs, but there's a reason why many European countries ban the practice for non-medical needs. Also do keep in mind that while canines are hardy animals, they still do require those sex hormones to function normally. When you remove the sexual organs their bodies will switch to taxing the adrenaline glad for said hormones. For some breeds, this will not be too detrimental, although still not good/ideal at all. While for other breeds, such as rottweilers, it is absolutely detrimental. As doing so pretty much sentences them to an earlier death from cancer eventually, especially done prior to their first heat in females and 1.5 years for males.

Also, keep in mind that my particular form of love for animals is NOT a fetish. I myself consider it a sexual orientation as does Hani Miletski.
 
FloofyNewfie said:
Canines don't exactly come out of their mother's womb spayed and neutered. It's something that you, as the species with the larger prefrontal cortex and higher EQ ratio, decided to inflict upon the animal through preconceived justifications.

As mentioned, there are legitimate reasons for keeping a canine intact and there are legitimate reasons for spaying and neutering canines as well. Both have their ups and downs, but there's a reason why many European countries ban the practice for non-medical needs. Also do keep in mind that while canines are hardy animals, they still do require those sex hormones to function normally. When you remove the sexual organs their bodies will switch to taxing the adrenaline glad for said hormones. For some breeds, this will not be too detrimental, although still not good/ideal at all. While for other breeds, such as rottweilers, it is absolutely detrimental. As doing so pretty much sentences them to an earlier death from cancer eventually, especially done prior to their first heat in females and 1.5 years for males.

Also, keep in mind that my particular form of love for animals is NOT a fetish. I myself consider it a sexual orientation as does Hani Miletski.
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The thought is good, but it seems pretty clear to me that you're trying to talk sense to someone who drank the Bob Barker kool-aid - then made a new batch, drank some more, and is now trying to foist it on everybody else.
 
egoldstein said:
Can be, not necessarily are; it greatly depends on a number of factors that need to be taken into account on an individual basis.
It is important to not lose sight of the fact that for some, spaying can have serious, life-threatening consequences as well as being a source of life-saving consequences.

I don't think it is unethical to leave a bitch intact, especially if they are not a high-risk breed. That said, and the points I keep stressing are there there ARE risks; many of those risks become greater as she ages. It is not just about convenience; anyone who says otherwise is woefully ignorant. Anyone who's deciding to keep an intact bitch who doesn't know the early signs of pyometra needs to learn ASAP.

There are trade offs and reasons to spay and not to spay that need to be figured out with the bitch's best interests in mind. It's OK to want sex, I do. It's OK to choose to not modify a healthy dog who's not a high risk, but one needs to understand the risks and reevaluate year after year. It's not selfish to think, "Holy shit that could suck, I don't want that.", but it is when that is your primary motivator, your primary motivator should be, "I love this bitch, I do not want to lose her; I should make informed decisions about her health, even if it sucks for me."


Pyometra - American College of Veterinary Surgeons

www.acvs.org www.acvs.org
www.dvm360.com

Canine pyometra: Early recognition and diagnosis

Find out what you need to know to identify pyometra as early as possible.
www.dvm360.com www.dvm360.com

It's OK to not know, we're all ignorant until we learn. Want me to shut up? Stop repeating the bullshit about it being only about convenience, smack that shit down when you see it and help educate the community. I expect more from zoos, we're supposed to care and love our companions more than non-zoos; step up.
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@egoldstein
Daayyymmm! So incredibly spot on dude!!!

Thank you for being the person you are... 🐕
 
SaltyDog said:
@OffgridK9lover
This sounds like a recent event. You have my condolences.

Please keep us up to date... 🐕
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last week end, she was in Monday and out Tuesday night, today she's doing much better and eating more so regaining strength getting back to her normal self, I noticed her being lethargic, rapid breathing, keeping close eye on their behaivior and noting any thing odd is a life saver, the vet was glad she was at such an early stage which makes recovery much better odds
 
LuvelyLeda said:
Poor girl :( She was sick the last time you mentioned her too. I'm glad she's getting better...
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that was a different girl, her thankfully was just growing pains / pinched nerve, this was the older mix girl who was a cuddly lil horn ball. poor girl was a victim of a hit and run few years back too.
 
OffgridK9lover said:
last week end, she was in Monday and out Tuesday night, today she's doing much better and eating more so regaining strength getting back to her normal self, I noticed her being lethargic, rapid breathing, keeping close eye on their behaivior and noting any thing odd is a life saver, the vet was glad she was at such an early stage which makes recovery much better odds
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If your vet has put her on gabapentin or any analog drugs, that'll make her a bit lethargic, woozy, and foggy headed and it will not help with hunger. Just imagine trying to enjoy a meal while dizzy, woozy, and foggy headed.

Luckily the biggest hurdle is over for her, the surgery itself. Here's to hoping that she has a speedy and easy recovery. 🤞
 
FloofyNewfie said:
Well damn, odd that you mentioned him yesterday, he literally just died today. Are you some kind of dark magic voodoo wizard that can kill people by just naming them?
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It came as news to me this morning - I honestly didn't know he was still alive - Somehow, I was under the impression that he'd kicked off a year or so before The Coof started making the rounds.
 
FloofyNewfie said:
If your vet has put her on gabapentin or any analog drugs, that'll make her a bit lethargic, woozy, and foggy headed and it will not help with hunger. Just imagine trying to enjoy a meal while dizzy, woozy, and foggy headed.

Luckily the biggest hurdle is over for her, the surgery itself. Here's to hoping that she has a speedy and easy recovery. 🤞
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well she's back to her normal self, she's done the amoxacillin course, and inhaling her food, guarding her spot on the couch, and bolting out side like normal.

So things are looking good. would like to get a second blood test done to ensure things are all stabilized.
 
OffgridK9lover said:
well she's back to her normal self, she's done the amoxacillin course, and inhaling her food, guarding her spot on the couch, and bolting out side like normal.

So things are looking good. would like to get a second blood test done to ensure things are all stabilized.
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do keep us posted.
fingers crossed nothing shits out...
 
OffgridK9lover said:
well she's back to her normal self, she's done the amoxacillin course, and inhaling her food, guarding her spot on the couch, and bolting out side like normal.

So things are looking good. would like to get a second blood test done to ensure things are all stabilized.
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Such wonderful news!!! :)

Now that the Amoxicillin is done, are you open to the idea of replenishing her friendly flora in her gut? Look into it if you are interested. This will help build back her immune system.

Hope this helps... 🐕
 
OffgridK9lover said:
she'll do that her self quite well, despite best attempts to stop her eating sheep shit and catching mice!
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Oh wow! This is good to hear. If she's actually eating the mice, this can definitely provide a source of probiotics to rebuild her system. You are correct. Happy to hear she's doing well.

Thank you so much... 🐕
 
UR20Z said:
The thought is good, but it seems pretty clear to me that you're trying to talk sense to someone who drank the Bob Barker kool-aid - then made a new batch, drank some more, and is now trying to foist it on everybody else.
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Nope, just actual real science and not this nonsense people come up with to justify their fetishes.
 
dogluver101 said:
Who's to say just because someone keeps a dog intact doesn't mean they're doing anything sexual. If you believe that, then go over and tell your neighbor "If you're dog isn't fixed, then you're obviously fucking them"
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I'm not talking about people in general. I'm talking about people on this site.
 
silvershadow777 said:
I'm not talking about people in general. I'm talking about people on this site.
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I'm keeping the quote below so this stays in context...
silvershadow777 said:
Though it would seem that you are in a position to decide that it's OK to keep them intact just so you can fulfill a fetish.
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As has been stated serveral times, sex isn't the only reason to keep a dog intact. There are health risks with spaying and there are health risks for not spaying; both of these risks are highly variable based on breed. Rottweiler bitches for instance have a significantly increased chance of osteosarcoma and other cancers due to spaying, it's enough of a thing that even the AKC Rottweiler group recommend leaving all bitches males and females intact until 6 years of age(1); that's just for Rottweilers, other breeds have other risks that are increased due to spaying or neutering. In addition to the health risks, there are behavioral concerns one needs to be aware of; neutering is linked with increased aggression(2).

There's nothing selfish about wanting to enjoy a mutual pleasurable experience, it's only selfish if one chooses their own pleasure over the dog's health and wellbeing. Low risk breeds left intact with a caretaker who's active in their care, knows how to spot the signs, and is responsive to veterinary needs don't stand to gain much from a spay...given I don't think that covers as many people here as it should, but we're working on that. The argument that not spaying is only about sex is as much bullshit as the claim that spaying is only for convenience, please stop with the invalid claims. There's no shame in finding out we've been wrong about something; we learn and move on, but to cling to an invalid argument when we've been shown to be in error should be embarrassing.


1) https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/rottweiler/ under the "Health" subheading.

2) Aggression toward Familiar People, Strangers, and Conspecifics in Gonadectomized and Intact Dogs https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2018.00018/full
 
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ItsAHardKnotLife said:
I just say that I’m keeping him intact so he matures properly and I may breed him in the future. Beyond that, it’s quite frankly none of their damn business. The whole “bob barker, spay and neuter your dog” movement is annoying and misguided. Everybody is so quick to push for sterilization, yet they have no idea what it truly does to the animal. They just parrot back the same old “He’ll bE aGgReSsIvE/uNwAnTeD pUpPiEs” bullshit. Just remember that you’re paying the vet for their services. If they have an issue, stare down their nose at you, or keep trying to sell an unnecessary surgery; take your business elsewhere.
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new to the site, and this is my first post (be gentle I am fragile :p).

Ok, all seriousness aside, and as this thread keeps getting necro'ed, I just wanted to say thank you for saying this. When I had Daisy who was a Chihuahua Beagle, and I swear had a personality way more human than Canine (and long before I found out Zoophilla was a thing) they vet would constantly demand I spay her and yes gave the full package excuse of spaying while the vet saw dollar signs in their eyes. It really sticks in my craw that people go into the field of wanting to help animals, but then end up being in it for the money and nothing else. Annnnd this is where I stop before I do multiple pages of rants right there.

In the mean time, like I said I am nere here so like uh Hi!
 
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