Gun Ownership - NO politics, just "Do you or do you not own a firearm"

[Bloodwolf]

I heard about how all you need is an license in Pakistan to pretty much buy any kind of small arm under the sun. Granted, I also hear they're hard to get if you're not Pakistani.

Some of the arms readily available in Pakistan make America look second class in comparison. Over here we're mainly restricted to semi automatics only without licensing.

We don’t live in a practical war zone either.
if we lived in constant threat of death and war things would be different.

 

[dogfuck1900]

I heard about how all you need is an license in Pakistan to pretty much buy any kind of small arm under the sun. Granted, I also hear they're hard to get if you're not Pakistani.

Some of the arms readily available in Pakistan make America look second class in comparison. Over here we're mainly restricted to semi automatics only without licensing.

No actually that's not true . You need separate license for each small fire arm. But in tribal areas near the afghan border , in northern areas and in most parts of baluchistan province you don't need any kind of license. You can even own a rocket launcher ,grenades and anti aircraft guns. The reason being is that's the culture of those tribal areas ,they need guns to survive in those harsh terrains and to protect themselves from foreign Invaders and other tribal enemies. Hospitality and enmity is famous in those pakhtun and baluch tribes. Over the course of history they were invaded by one foreign Invader after another i.e the ancient Greeks,English,Russians and recently americans. The reason behind that is the geo political position in that region. They developed their own methods of making arms to defend themselves and for generations they are making arms and ammunitions in small workshops ,homes etc. They copy and clone every small weapon in the world. Some cheap clones are mediocre quality but if willing to pay more some ones are really good ones almost close to the original. Some are not copies but their own hybrid inventions. A local made copy of fully auto AK costs $150. Mostly they are handmade.
Roughly all pakistanis use local made weapons because few afford to pay much more for the original imported ones.
Posting some video links to show you what I am talking about.
https://youtu.be/tAWA9Um2MmY

We don’t live in a practical war zone either.
if we lived in constant threat of death and war things would be different.

We are not living in a war zone either. Since 2014 things are normal here.

 

[Bloodwolf]

No actually that's not true . You need separate license for each small fire arm. But in tribal areas near the afghan border , in northern areas and in most parts of baluchistan province you don't need any kind of license. You can even own a rocket launcher ,grenades and anti aircraft guns. The reason being is that's the culture of those tribal areas ,they need guns to survive in those harsh terrains and to protect themselves from foreign Invaders and other tribal enemies. Hospitality and enmity is famous in those pakhtun and baluch tribes. Over the course of history they were invaded by one foreign Invader after another i.e the ancient Greeks,English,Russians and recently americans. The reason behind that is the geo political position in that region. They developed their own methods of making arms to defend themselves and for generations they are making arms and ammunitions in small workshops ,homes etc. They copy and clone every small weapon in the world. Some cheap clones are mediocre quality but if willing to pay more some ones are really good ones almost close to the original. Some are not copies but their own hybrid inventions. A local made copy of fully auto AK costs $150. Mostly they are handmade.
Roughly all pakistanis use local made weapons because few afford to pay much more for the original imported ones.
Posting some video links to show you what I am talking about.
https://youtu.be/tAWA9Um2MmY

We are not living in a war zone either. Since 2014 things are normal here.

That’s good to know. At least things are stabilized in some Middle East areas.

 

[dogfuck1900]

That’s good to know. At least things are stabilized in some Middle East areas.

Lol you Americans need to take some geography classes. Pakistan is not in the middle east.

 

[Bloodwolf]

Lol you Americans need to take some geography classes. Pakistan is not in the middle east.

You maybe right! ? I haven’t been no farther then NV.

 

[Smee]

i owned a .38 S&W pre victory model still own a .22 enfield rifle, a 1875 7mm pinfire revolver, a .22 revolver in black powder short rifle. where i live they class wall hangers real guns too, i own the deactivated .38 S&W (1st in the list) a .303 Brengun, 2x Mosin Nagant, Enfield rifle that dry fires.... i love them all as little works of art, i do hope i can shoot again soon as i miss it.

 

[Pillar]

Lol you Americans need to take some geography classes. Pakistan is not in the middle east.

Where exactly is Pakistan then? The only thing I know geographically about Pakistan is that it is next to India.

We don’t live in a practical war zone either.
if we lived in constant threat of death and war things would be different.

If this was a war zone here I would've left long ago. I'm not looking to die anytime soon anymore.

I was just saying I wished Class III weapons weren't so heavily regulated, because the crooks here never needed government permission to get theirs.

No actually that's not true . You need separate license for each small fire arm. But in tribal areas near the afghan border , in northern areas and in most parts of baluchistan province you don't need any kind of license. You can even own a rocket launcher ,grenades and anti aircraft guns. The reason being is that's the culture of those tribal areas ,they need guns to survive in those harsh terrains and to protect themselves from foreign Invaders and other tribal enemies. Hospitality and enmity is famous in those pakhtun and baluch tribes. Over the course of history they were invaded by one foreign Invader after another i.e the ancient Greeks,English,Russians and recently americans. The reason behind that is the geo political position in that region. They developed their own methods of making arms to defend themselves and for generations they are making arms and ammunitions in small workshops ,homes etc. They copy and clone every small weapon in the world. Some cheap clones are mediocre quality but if willing to pay more some ones are really good ones almost close to the original. Some are not copies but their own hybrid inventions. A local made copy of fully auto AK costs $150. Mostly they are handmade.
Roughly all pakistanis use local made weapons because few afford to pay much more for the original imported ones.
Posting some video links to show you what I am talking about.
https://youtu.be/tAWA9Um2MmY

We are not living in a war zone either. Since 2014 things are normal here.

Thank you for the informative response.

 

[dogfuck1900]

Where exactly is Pakistan then? The only thing I know geographically about Pakistan is that it is next to India.

Yes it's next to India. Pakistan is in South Asia.

 

[dogfuck1900]

Thank you for the informative response.

You are welcome buddy.
And I hope you watched all those videos. I believe they are worth watching for any gun enthusiast.

 

[Pillar]

Yes it's next to India. Pakistan is in South Asia.

The thing is the middle east is not a continent - it's the general area/Arabic nations in that area that are considered the middle east.

 

[UR20Z]

A 9mm is always better than a .22 for defense.

Watch this video by a fellow often called "the Gunfather of YouTube". If this man has *EVER* said anything that wasn't dead-on right (and often QUITE amusing in the WAY he says it) I haven't encountered it yet.

 

[Pillar]

@UR20Z

Here's why 80 percent lowers aren't foolproof when purchased online:

Despite Restraining Order, ATF Raids Ares Armor Over Plastic Parts

Last week Ares Armor, a company that sells firearms parts in San Diego, obtained a restraining order against the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

townhall.com

Gun Owner Info Seized in ATF Raid in San Diego: Store CEO

Some San Diego-area gun owners are concerned about federal agents taking their personal information in a weekend raid on a gun parts store.

www.nbcsandiego.com

 

[umafera]

buy em cash from a show or store.

 

[Pillar]

buy em cash from a show or store.

A store won't work because of the 4473. Maybe a state with no registration requirements.

 

[UR20Z]

As can be seen from reading the report, the lowers in question *WERE NOT 80% LOWERS*. An 80% lower MUST, to qualify as such, be incomplete, and require a specific amount of further milling work. The legal definition of "how incomplete", and what milling work is needed to qualify as "80%", and therefore still "just a block of metal" includes requiring the FCG (Fire Control Group) pocket (where the trigger, safety/selector switch, disconnector, hammer, and associated springs and pins live) to be a *TOTALLY SOLID UNMARKED BLOCK*. Note the "unmarked" - even having guide lines scribed onto that otherwise solid block changes it from a block of metal that absolutely nobody gives half a dead shit about into "Legally, that's a gun - end of discussion. Now come along, we have a nice federal prison cell where you're going to be living for the next few years."

The seized items *WERE NOT* 80% lowers. They were COMPLETED - not just marked, but *FULLY COMPLETED* - polymer lowers, lacking only an FCG kit, buffer tube, pistol-grip, and an upper to be fully operational firearms, which, under every legal standard applicable then or now, *ARE GUNS*, even if they have no other parts attached to them. In and of themselves, completed AR-15 lower receivers, even if they've never so much as been within a five mile radius of a barrel, buffer tube, trigger group, or a single round of live ammunition, never mind been built into ready-to-fire weapons, *ARE GUNS* in the eyes of the law.

Guns not produced by an individual "homebrewing" them *MUST* be serial-numbered. Guns produced by an individual "home brewer" that are produced with the intent that they will be offered for sale *MUST* have a serial number, and the person making them *MUST* have a federal license to make them. This is long-established case law that, if I had the time and inclination to bother, I could bury you, your relatives, and your entire house in citations from cases that have been decided exactly that way. I'll leave that for you to do however, since you're the one who has the doubts.

Ares Armor was running with the (TOTALLY WRONG) assumption that since they were made of plastic, rather than metal, they were somehow exempt from the serial numbering and federal manufacturing license requirement. Wrong. And wrong. And wrong. And SO FUCKING WRONG IT'S RIDICULOUS! Ares Armor was *WAY THE FUCK* out on a legal limb, and they (quite rightly) had it cut out from under them. Polymer lowers are legally no different than aluminum lowers. Ares Armor had 6000 of them on hand. Forget even TRYING to claim that they were "homebrew builders" - there is no other explanation or reason for having so many on hand than that they intended to sell them. Which means they require a federal manufacturing license, and each and every one produced MUST have a unique serial number molded, burned, etched, or otherwise permanently marked on them. The people who bought those receivers own illegal weapons - They bought non-serialized guns, from an illegal manufacturing operation. Even I, a solid 2A backer, wouldn't be able to find a way to let them off if I was on the jury that heard the case, much as I'd like to. They (both the buyers, and Ares Armor) broke the law in more ways than even I can look away from.

 

[Pillar]

As can be seen from reading the report, the lowers in question *WERE NOT 80% LOWERS*. An 80% lower MUST, to qualify as such, be incomplete, and require a specific amount of further milling work. The legal definition of "how incomplete", and what milling work is needed to qualify as "80%", and therefore still "just a block of metal" includes requiring the FCG (Fire Control Group) pocket (where the trigger, safety/selector switch, disconnector, hammer, and associated springs and pins live) to be a *TOTALLY SOLID UNMARKED BLOCK*. Note the "unmarked" - even having guide lines scribed onto that otherwise solid block changes it from a block of metal that absolutely nobody gives half a dead shit about into "Legally, that's a gun - end of discussion. Now come along, we have a nice federal prison cell where you're going to be living for the next few years."

The seized items *WERE NOT* 80% lowers. They were COMPLETED - not just marked, but *FULLY COMPLETED* - polymer lowers, lacking only an FCG kit, buffer tube, pistol-grip, and an upper to be fully operational firearms, which, under every legal standard applicable then or now, *ARE GUNS*, even if they have no other parts attached to them. In and of themselves, completed AR-15 lower receivers, even if they've never so much as been within a five mile radius of a barrel, buffer tube, trigger group, or a single round of live ammunition, never mind been built into ready-to-fire weapons, *ARE GUNS* in the eyes of the law.

Guns not produced by an individual "homebrewing" them *MUST* be serial-numbered. Guns produced by an individual "home brewer" that are produced with the intent that they will be offered for sale *MUST* have a serial number, and the person making them *MUST* have a federal license to make them. This is long-established case law that, if I had the time and inclination to bother, I could bury you, your relatives, and your entire house in citations from cases that have been decided exactly that way. I'll leave that for you to do however, since you're the one who has the doubts.

Ares Armor was running with the (TOTALLY WRONG) assumption that since they were made of plastic, rather than metal, they were somehow exempt from the serial numbering and federal manufacturing license requirement. Wrong. And wrong. And wrong. And SO FUCKING WRONG IT'S RIDICULOUS! Ares Armor was *WAY THE FUCK* out on a legal limb, and they (quite rightly) had it cut out from under them. Polymer lowers are legally no different than aluminum lowers. Ares Armor had 6000 of them on hand. Forget even TRYING to claim that they were "homebrew builders" - there is no other explanation or reason for having so many on hand than that they intended to sell them. Which means they require a federal manufacturing license, and each and every one produced MUST have a unique serial number molded, burned, etched, or otherwise permanently marked on them. The people who bought those receivers own illegal weapons - They bought non-serialized guns, from an illegal manufacturing operation. Even I, a solid 2A backer, wouldn't be able to find a way to let them off if I was on the jury that heard the case, much as I'd like to. They (both the buyers, and Ares Armor) broke the law in more ways than even I can look away from.

The thing is there was no precedent before this. There was even an ATF guide made about this thing, I think they made it after the raid. It wasn't even because the lowers were plastic - it was because of the color-coded guidance of the "receiver".

 

[UR20Z]

A store won't work because of the 4473. Maybe a state with no registration requirements.

With a *PROPER* 80% lower, THERE IS NO 4473. It's a chunk of metal. Nothing more, nothing less. A "cash-and-carry" item. Hell, there isn't even a legal requirement for an ID check, let alone a 4473. You take home a totally anonymous block of metal. YOU do some milling work on it, add some other bits and pieces, and presto! You now own an AR-15 rifle with no serial number, no registration, no nothing. End of story.

However, if you try to take it to someone else to do the milling, that someone else MUST have the federal firearms manufacturing license, and he/she/they MUST permanently apply a serial number on it, and before they can legally hand it back to you, they MUST do a form 4473 and jump through all the hoops that you'd have to jump through to buy a ready-to-shoot AR-15 at the gun store.

 

[Pillar]

With a *PROPER* 80% lower, THERE IS NO 4473. It's a chunk of metal. Nothing more, nothing less. A "cash-and-carry" item. Hell, there isn't even a legal requirement for an ID check, let alone a 4473. You take home a totally anonymous block of metal. YOU do some milling work on it, add some other bits and pieces, and presto! You now own an AR-15 rifle with no serial number, no registration, no nothing. End of story.

However, if you try to take it to someone else to do the milling, that someone else MUST have the federal firearms manufacturing license, and he/she/they MUST permanently apply a serial number on it, and before they can legally hand it back to you, they MUST do a form 4473 and jump through all the hoops that you'd have to jump through to buy a ready-to-shoot AR-15 at the gun store.

I remember they also raised building parties for that

 

[UR20Z]

The thing is there was no precedent before this. There was even an ATF guide made about this thing, I think they made it after the raid. It wasn't even because the lowers were plastic - it was because of the color-coded guidance of the "receiver".

Dude, the precedents go back to AT LEAST 1968. Ares Armor tried to claim they were selling 80% lowers. In reality, they were selling what is today called a "stripped lower" - a fully completed lower that needs only a parts kit to turn into a functional firearm - No milling, just drop in a lower parts kit and you're good to go. Even without the parts kit, that completed receiver is, according to law with enough precedents behind it to choke a horse, a GUN. There's no discussion possible on that point. Any gun made for sale requires a permanently affixed serial number. There's no discussion possible on that point. Anybody who makes a gun for sale must have a federal firearms manufacturing license. THAT point can't be discussed, either. That's the way it is.

Ares fucked up. Ares TRIED to claim they weren't selling guns, but "gun parts". If they'd been selling true 80% lowers, they'd be in the right. They weren't - They were selling *COMPLETED* lowers, which, in the eyes of the law *ARE GUNS*. As such, they MUST be serially-numbered, and the outfit making them MUST be able to display a federal firearms manufacturing license on demand. Ares couldn't and didn't. Ares got busted for breaking several firearms laws. Ares got righteously busted. Their customers, who bought illegal weapons, are right to be feeling nervous - By doing so, they committed felonies.

Do I agree with these facts? Perhaps not. But that doesn't change the reality that they ARE facts.

 

[umafera]

A store won't work because of the 4473. Maybe a state with no registration requirements.

80% isnt a firearm. no 4473. it's a useless chunk of metal until you completely machine it out.

under federal law a completed lower doesnt even need a s/n unless you plan to transfer it.

i have a pile of 80%'s bought with cash.

80%'s are actually quite useful as I can take them places and use them with uppers to demonstrate stuff in places where firearms are prohibited. they are not firearms.

 

[IHO]

True, but you can't conceal carry a rifle.

Hmmm... ?

 

[GT_AC_NY]

Guns - never owned one, never touched one, don't plan to.

 

[IHO]

Not bad lol. You need one of these

I totally need to add one of those to my collection. My regular carry knife is an automatic. Opens and locks with the press of a button. It's not one of the crappy slide-out-the-front ones you see in the movies or an Italian-style stiletto; It's more like a Buck knife but slender and with a 5-inch blade. With the exception of a few of my nicer fixed-blade collectables, it's my favorite. ?

 

[UR20Z]

Hmmm... ?

I went looking for another one similar to that I saw ages ago, but couldn't find it.

Short form: what looked like about a 16 year old kid dressed mid-to-late 80s NYC "Hip-hop" style walks up to a table and starts by pulling an AR not much different than that guy's out of his pants, proceeds to drop 6-8 mags on the table with the rifle, goes on to drag what looked like a short-barreled 870 or clone out, complete with a dozen rounds, then continues, pulling out two 1911s, at least 3 glocks that I can recall, some others I've forgotten, and finally, to put the cherry on the top, out of his hat came a "mouse gun" - looked like it was probably a .22 derringer like the old Rohm I used to have years ago. Made my face go , lemme tell ya!

 

[IHO]

I went looking for another one similar to that I saw ages ago, but couldn't find it.

Short form: what looked like about a 16 year old kid dressed mid-to-late 80s NYC "Hip-hop" style walks up to a table and starts by pulling an AR not much different than that guy's out of his pants, proceeds to drop 6-8 mags on the table with the rifle, goes on to drag what looked like a short-barreled 870 or clone out, complete with a dozen rounds, then continues, pulling out two 1911s, at least 3 glocks that I can recall, some others I've forgotten, and finally, to put the cherry on the top, out of his hat came a "mouse gun" - looked like it was probably a .22 derringer like the old Rohm I used to have years ago. Made my face go , lemme tell ya!

That's exactly the one I was trying to find myself! Had to settle for this one.

 

[UR20Z]

For anybody not happy with their ammo-on-hand numbers and having trouble finding anybody with anything for sale, suggest you hit outdoorlimited.com and browse around.

Placed an order with them this morning for a case (5K rounds) of Aguila 38 grain copper-plated hollowpoint .22LR, and a case (1K rounds) of Hornady Frontier XM193 5.56 - both intended to feed my new rifle. (I've got a CMMG .22LR conversion bolt coming for it, expected to arrive on Monday) Got away with "only" a $750 ding on the bank account, including taxes and shipping. Not bad, considering the only other place I've found that had ANYTHING AT ALL available wanted almost a grand (BEFORE taxes and shipping) for a case of .223, and $389 for 1000 rounds of .22LR! (Hint: cheaperthandirt *AIN'T*! Gouging bunch of assholes... They nearly tripled their pricing when the Covid panic-buying started - The case of Wolf .223 that they were offering for $279 jumped to $635 literally overnight, and has been creeping streadily higher almost daily since - last time they were showing it in stock, they wanted $985.79 - for Wolf steel-case, berdan primed .223)

The outdoor limited website has all the usual "OMG! Covid! We're buried! Orders probably won't ship for at least 2-3 days if not longer, but we're working on it as best we can, we promise!" type warnings that every online ammo dealer and his dog is showing lately. My thought went "Well, better later than not at all like everybody else" and hit the "make it happen" button. This is the first place I've found online since the panic-buying started that wasn't showing out of stock for everything but exotic and/or absolutely ridiculously overpriced ammo.

Placed the order at about 8 local time this morning, then went out to start the day. Just came in and found an email timestamped 12:31 with a subject line saying that my order status had been changed. First thought before even clicking to open it was "Wonder which one they ran out of and how long it'll be before I see it or my money back in the account?" Click to open it up, wade through the boilerplate, and find "Your order status has been changed to SHIPPED - thanks for your business, here's your tracking number, estimated delivery date, 05/22/2020" (Had to go UPS Ground - can't air-freight ammo without WAY more headache than it's worth unless you're talking about doing it in pallet-load quantities)

Checked the UPS Tracking site, and sure enough, the tracking number is live, and shows the package picked up and in transit from High Point NC, which is, surprise, surprise, exactly where they have their physical store/warehouse.

2-3 days, if not longer, eh? I guess I can live with days that go that fast

 

[Pillar]

For anybody not happy with their ammo-on-hand numbers and having trouble finding anybody with anything for sale, suggest you hit outdoorlimited.com and browse around.

Placed an order with them this morning for a case (5K rounds) of Aguila 38 grain copper-plated hollowpoint .22LR, and a case (1K rounds) of Hornady Frontier XM193 5.56 - both intended to feed my new rifle. (I've got a CMMG .22LR conversion bolt coming for it, expected to arrive on Monday) Got away with "only" a $750 ding on the bank account, including taxes and shipping. Not bad, considering the only other place I've found that had ANYTHING AT ALL available wanted almost a grand (BEFORE taxes and shipping) for a case of .223, and $389 for 1000 rounds of .22LR! (Hint: cheaperthandirt *AIN'T*! Gouging bunch of assholes... They nearly tripled their pricing when the Covid panic-buying started - The case of Wolf .223 that they were offering for $279 jumped to $635 literally overnight, and has been creeping streadily higher almost daily since - last time they were showing it in stock, they wanted $985.79 - for Wolf steel-case, berdan primed .223)

The outdoor limited website has all the usual "OMG! Covid! We're buried! Orders probably won't ship for at least 2-3 days if not longer, but we're working on it as best we can, we promise!" type warnings that every online ammo dealer and his dog is showing lately. My thought went "Well, better later than not at all like everybody else" and hit the "make it happen" button. This is the first place I've found online since the panic-buying started that wasn't showing out of stock for everything but exotic and/or absolutely ridiculously overpriced ammo.

Placed the order at about 8 local time this morning, then went out to start the day. Just came in and found an email timestamped 12:31 with a subject line saying that my order status had been changed. First thought before even clicking to open it was "Wonder which one they ran out of and how long it'll be before I see it or my money back in the account?" Click to open it up, wade through the boilerplate, and find "Your order status has been changed to SHIPPED - thanks for your business, here's your tracking number, estimated delivery date, 05/22/2020" (Had to go UPS Ground - can't air-freight ammo without WAY more headache than it's worth unless you're talking about doing it in pallet-load quantities)

Checked the UPS Tracking site, and sure enough, the tracking number is live, and shows the package picked up and in transit from High Point NC, which is, surprise, surprise, exactly where they have their physical store/warehouse.

2-3 days, if not longer, eh? I guess I can live with days that go that fast

$1,000 for a case of Wolf .223? The world really has gone mad - that ammo shouldn't cost more than a quarter per round!

 

[UR20Z]

$1,000 for a case of Wolf .223? The world really has gone mad - that ammo shouldn't cost more than a quarter per round!

Before the covid SHTF, cheaperthandirt.com was offering 1000 round cases of steel/berdan Wolf .223 55 grain FMJ for 279 and change - a tiny bit high since I was seeing everybody else offering the same case of ammo for 249-269, give or take some change - but not completely outrageous. I looked at their prices (and others) the day I went to pick up my rifle - on Friday the 20th. By Saturday night, they'd jumped it to $635, and were out of stock on practically everything else that wasn't some sort of "super-duper magical bullets made out of compressed unicorn farts to guarantee you'll win every competition you enter" grade stuff that nobody (outside of the competition shooters it's intended to rip off) in their right mind wants anyway. I was damned happy I stumbled across that last case of PPU .223 and got out the door with it for under $450 at the shop when I picked up the gun, lemme tell ya! And even happier when I started seeing all the online folks either completely out of stock, or boosting prices on even junk ammo into the 70-80 cents a round range - before any taxes and shipping. Last weekend, CtD was wanting $985.79 for that same case of Wolf that they'd been selling for $279 last month, and claimed to have "17 ready to ship" Haven't looked at them since Tuesday, when they were back to "out of stock" on it again.

It's caused quite the flap amongst the various gun forums - there's some pretty ugly stuff being said about cheaperthandirt.com because of it. All of it basically the same thing, once you cut through the layers of "colorful expressions": Let 'em choke on it! And I have to agree - It's one thing to do a minor bump when demand goes up, but it's a whole different situation when you're blatantly price-gouging the way they're doing.

 

[Puppygirl73]

Do ot and can't for mental health reasons to many times in a mental hospital

 

[Red1085]

I know I already answered, but since then i have bought 3 more guns. In fact my wife mentioned i need a bigger gun safe. I already have a huge safe as it is. But I also use it to store the knives I forge and make. In fact 2 of the guns i bought is to match a type of knife i'm making.