caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
The problem is that you have to have substantial resources before you can get Fed approval. The 501c3 corporation is free if you do all the work yourself. The credit union should come later in the plan.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
A 501c3 has some strict rules it has to follow, though. It cannot advocate for a particular political party, or it comes under a different set of rules. I attend Toastmasters International meetings, and the leadership is very paranoid about keeping their 501c3 approval. They jump like they have been poked with a cattle-prod if you even go near explicitly political discussion.
A 501c3, I think, can advocate for a particular cause, but anyone that was working on the organization's time must NEVER say something like, "Trump sure is a bastard" until the gavel has been banged signalling the end of official discussion related to the activities of the 501c3. It is very strictly enforced. If an organization is ever seen as a proxy for someone's political campaign, POOF, gone.
I really don't think people think that way when it comes to bestiality. It's more a question of consent, and the idea that humans are "above" animals. As a millennial coming up in the #metoo eta, anything other than a verbal "yes" in your native language doesn't mean "yes," and you've just committed sexual assault. How could an animal, which doesn't score the same average on IQ tests as a fully-grown human, who can't convey their thoughts, emotions, and feelings clearly to us humans, who can't participate in the market in any meaningful way of its own volition, couldpossibly understand the exchange that takes place with sex on the same level as us?
As for the latter, I believe the line of thinking is more like, "We are the anointed ones, on top of the pyramid, and anyone willing to place themselves at the paws/hooves/etc. of those beneath us is considered a degenerate." Evidence for this attitude is already apparent. Although we all call for an end to factory farming and cruelty to animals in this industry, we are all, for the most part, complacent in it. Vegan food isn't always vegan, as animals are used as tools for farming in many parts of the world still. Most don't have the means to work the land and feed their families with the fruits of that labor. It doesn't help that our politicians don't seem to care one iota either about this issue. It's fucked up, to say the least. I think that's more where it comes from.
I could be wrong though.
As for the latter, I believe the line of thinking is more like, "We are the anointed ones, on top of the pyramid, and anyone willing to place themselves at the paws/hooves/etc. of those beneath us is considered a degenerate." Evidence for this attitude is already apparent. Although we all call for an end to factory farming and cruelty to animals in this industry, we are all, for the most part, complacent in it. Vegan food isn't always vegan, as animals are used as tools for farming in many parts of the world still. Most don't have the means to work the land and feed their families with the fruits of that labor. It doesn't help that our politicians don't seem to care one iota either about this issue. It's fucked up, to say the least. I think that's more where it comes from.
I could be wrong though.
caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Your friends are needlessly paranoid. All you have to do is include the prohibition in your charter and discipline anyone making public statements about a specific candidate. ASPCA, HSUS, and PETA are all 501c3 corporations.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
@thatdude Ultimately, the backlash against the #metoo movement is going to get pretty harsh, trust me. I already see it brewing. People that lead these crusades always think that it's going to be a forever and ever once-and-done thing where the way people think and the way people do things is changed forever and ever, and any other stakeholders that are affected by it are ancient history hanging out with fucking Hammurabi.
Once upon a time, though, the feminists got very convinced that they were running the show, now, and since they were in charge and since power had transitioned over to them forever and ever, it was natural that video game designers would be extremely concerned with making sure that women were given fair representation and dignifying roles in video games. Well, Gamergate happened, and that probably played a role in 2016. The feminists really, truly, and genuinely thought that they could wave their hands and make other stakeholders just stop existing as if by magic. It's not that simple. It's never that simple. When people fall into that sort of magical thinking, the backfire can be worse than the original problem.
2020 is probably going to be a good year for progressives, but I can guarantee, GUARANTEE, that the feminists that took part in dislodging the proverbial Basket of Deplorables is going to engage in the same kind of narcissitic overreach as before with the same kind of magical thinking, and they are going to find out, once again, those people do not just vanish peacefully into the mist when they have a bad election year.
Politics have their storms and seasons, and this fact does not really change from one generation to the next.
Change really is the only constant. We, the zoos, likewise are not about to vanish into the mist as a part of ancient history hanging out with Hammurabi and some Neolithic shepherds. We are still here, and we have to deal with the consequences of the current generation's oversights and mistakes.
Unlike some overweight gamers, we cannot just put down our sexual orientation and walk away from it. We are stuck with it. The fact that you see people from all parts of the political compass represented here only proves it.
Once upon a time, though, the feminists got very convinced that they were running the show, now, and since they were in charge and since power had transitioned over to them forever and ever, it was natural that video game designers would be extremely concerned with making sure that women were given fair representation and dignifying roles in video games. Well, Gamergate happened, and that probably played a role in 2016. The feminists really, truly, and genuinely thought that they could wave their hands and make other stakeholders just stop existing as if by magic. It's not that simple. It's never that simple. When people fall into that sort of magical thinking, the backfire can be worse than the original problem.
2020 is probably going to be a good year for progressives, but I can guarantee, GUARANTEE, that the feminists that took part in dislodging the proverbial Basket of Deplorables is going to engage in the same kind of narcissitic overreach as before with the same kind of magical thinking, and they are going to find out, once again, those people do not just vanish peacefully into the mist when they have a bad election year.
Politics have their storms and seasons, and this fact does not really change from one generation to the next.
Change really is the only constant. We, the zoos, likewise are not about to vanish into the mist as a part of ancient history hanging out with Hammurabi and some Neolithic shepherds. We are still here, and we have to deal with the consequences of the current generation's oversights and mistakes.
Unlike some overweight gamers, we cannot just put down our sexual orientation and walk away from it. We are stuck with it. The fact that you see people from all parts of the political compass represented here only proves it.
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Aluzky
Citizen of Zooville
Your idea seems better at the time being.
Zeroebt
Tourist
IMO we’re free to do as we please and whatever pleases us. Acceptance for me is not required especially when it comes to sexuality. People are entitled to their opinions and at the end of the day, acceptance doesn’t grant you a thing. Maybe be more likable but that in it self can be changed by a mere thought or act. Just my 2 cents.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
@Zeroebt
It gets plenty for me. I am already out as a zoo at social venues that I tend to frequent, and I am not about to start making a secret of it, now. I am not afraid of some belligerent motherfucker with a self-righteous attitude. You shouldn't be, either, and not one of us here ought to be.
It gets plenty for me. I am already out as a zoo at social venues that I tend to frequent, and I am not about to start making a secret of it, now. I am not afraid of some belligerent motherfucker with a self-righteous attitude. You shouldn't be, either, and not one of us here ought to be.
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BlueBeard
Guest
What a bizarre thing to say.
Anyway, to go further on that point, *how* did they get "outed or jailed for bestiality-related acts"? Did they... indiscreetly post photos of themselves having sex with dogs on the Web? How did they draw attention to themselves? Look at "how" they were outed, and... that's not going to be a factor for the majority of zoos.
Avoiding what those folks did should be considered somewhat insightful and beneficial, don't you think? And it's so easy. Been zoo my whole Boomer life, never had a legal issue. Not even close. Neither have my zoo friends, neither real life nor cyber, nor my wife, nor family.
I know you are sensitive to the issue due to some problems you have had, but c'mon, not everyone has to go that route. It can be avoided. That's a point people in the thread have repeatedly made, and I'm totally in agreement with them.
But I also know a time is coming when they won't have to worry any more about it than a swinging couple who is outed in their town -- Which is BAD ENOUGH, what happens to them. They... just don't go to jail for it. They don't have people hunt them like nonhumans for it. They don't trigger that "blood lust," that witch-hunters' instinct human beings seem to have, the way a zoophile does.
I didn't create this thread because I wanted to argue that what happens to a low percentage of zoos isn't bad. Please, no one think what Aluzky quoted me as saying was dismissing that. On the contrary: I was trying to keep people hopeful that the increasing laws against bestiality aren't a reason to give up hope. It's coming. It's ugly right now but it's coming.
But yeah, for the vast majority -- of the minority -- who do get in trouble? Let's keep things in perspective. What is it the laws actually affect?
When you read the news articles about how so-and-so got busted, or see YouTube videos where they try to go after a noisy zoo activist with his own personal agenda like a group of witch hunters with their torches lit, the first thing WE ALL are likely to say is, "Oh my god! That's horrible!" And then when we see what the did that got them that attention? It's quickly followed by, "What a dumbass" and "Crap. He makes it worse by convincing people we're all that stark-raving mad."
I'll put that in a separate thread titles Darwin awards. Examples we can give of people who make us all look bad by their ... example.
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BlueBeard
Guest
Oh no. I can't think of any myself off hand, but the next thing will be someone who can point to an example of a quiet zoo, minding their own business in the privacy of their own home, who made the news and went to jail or something.
Well, remember the yiddish saying: An example proves nothing.
The point of this thread was that the extreme reaction to bestiality in society we see going on right now does not mean there is no hope left. It could be taking the route of other sex/gender-related social issues -- and in that case, may be a sign acceptance is on the horizon. There's a light at the end of this tunnel.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
@BlueBeard I am a lot more worried about a younger zoo getting into trouble doing something stupid, then getting labeled a felon over misdemeanor trespassing and battered and abused their entire life because we that have made it to maturity saw it coming and did NOTHING. The fact is that each of us was a young and impulsive brat, at some point.
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BlueBeard
Guest
I agree. Of course I agree. Are you pointing out that we agree? Or... is there a point somewhere you thought we didn't?
Not sure why you're mentioning this.
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BlueBeard
Guest
@SigmatoZeta
Oh, but... as for the point we were all young once and impulsive... yes. And the vast majority lived through it. A few died. And it wasn't because caring adults were doing nothing for them.
Oh, but... as for the point we were all young once and impulsive... yes. And the vast majority lived through it. A few died. And it wasn't because caring adults were doing nothing for them.
caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
I know of one. About twenty years ago he hadn't even had sex with his dog, just stated online that he would rather have sex with his dog than his sister and she found it. He eventually got off after they euthanized his dog and ostracized him enough that he changed continents to escape the ridicule.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
@BlueBeard, yes, I know you do, and I just like to keep on stressing that point. A lot of the zoos that want to just straight up do nothing have a dysfunctional race-to-the-grave outlook, where they want to try to keep the zooey community mum until they have died of natural causes, too bad for the poor Milly that gets killed in the next psychotic paranoid witch-hunt. I think they are just as bad for us as the anti-zoos or worse. My whole reason for caring about this is that I know that it's part of what being young is about to get into trouble and do things maybe one shouldn't do, but while I agree that a young punk ought to pick up trash off the side of the road for an act of trespassing (might even be good for him), I think labeling him a felon for life and disrupting his career aspirations is just not okay.
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BlueBeard
Guest
So many things to unpack there, I thought at first. Then I realized how massively general these generalizations were, and I think I could get you to easily disagree with yourself.
It's almost as if you just said you believe in no censorship of behavior at all. Everyone should be entitled to do as they please. Certainly you don't mean that. Otherwise, there is no injustice, no abuse you'd be opposed to, try to stop. And if you argued in return, "But I'd be free to try to stop what I believed was an injustice or abuse against me or someone I cared for," then you just limited them.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions? Then you have to accept as equal to your own that there are people who believe zoophiles should be executed.
And "legality" never means "acceptance." The justice of the peace who is obligated by law to marry homosexuals is not required or expected to "accept" it personally. He's just to stop denying them the services of his office. By law.
When it comes to sexuality, I'd love to agree with you. But I can't. I know a girl impregnated at 10 years old by her father. He believed there was nothing wrong with that. That's who he "loved" and so he was fucking her since she could remember, before 6, I think, and kept on till he was FINALLY taken away by the law when she was 12. Not only am I inclined not to accept that, but... I'd probably violently intercede on her behalf. I would never just say, "Well, to each his own, you know. Just a difference of opinion."
So, without really arguing your points, suffice to say, it's not about "acceptance making us feel good." In many cases, it's so much more serious and can even come down to life or death.
Which brings us back to square one. Right now? -- Seen people hunted as zoophiles. There are people who advocate killing us. It's not *legal* to kill someone for being zoophile, no. Or to beat them up. But the law itself provides ways to make a zoophile miserable, and that's what we're hoping is coming for us. That that is taken away from them and that we're afforded greater protection.
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BlueBeard
Guest
Excellently well said.
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BlueBeard
Guest
Yeah, in the end, I don't get it.
Anyone following me in a couple other threads knows I don't like anal sex. Makes me grimace to even type it. Stick it in the out hole? You kidding me? And keep it out of mine! Ewwwwww......
But make it a felony? What the hell!!! *I* don't like it. That doesn't mean I would support criminalizing it. It's just not something that turns *me* on, I'm not wired that way. I've never sexualized buttholes. My wife, on the other hand? My wife LOVES anal sex! Although I can't do it for her, I can.... well.... you know... there are plenty of volunteers of there.
I don't want to see it or do it with them, but I'm very happy our difference doesn't cause her to have to go without, while at the same time, not making me do something I don't want. I think you have to play loose like that (no pun). And it seems to me, there is a trend for thinking like that. Polyamory is getting huge -- when it used to be we just never let on. Our "best friends" just seemed to be always at our house, to other folks. Polygamy is illegal, but... so what? No one we know of today in our polyamory groups is being prosecuted for it. No official ceremonies, of course, but... no persecution by the law.Why not the same with bestiality. Why does anyone need to make it illegal for someone to have sex with a pet or animal in the pasture? It's just a different sexual preference, for whatever reason: "fun, kinky or... within a zoophile's interspecies relationship."
Decriminalizing homosexuality did not force anyone to participate in homosexual acts. Decriminalizing bestiality will not force people into bestial acts.
So I'm thinking it should be on the horizon. I think that's what is coming. We will arrive shortly at deciding that we value people *so much*, we no longer treat them as pure evil for making a sexual choice the majority of people do not make. Same as any other sexual choices human's make.
Look at recent history. We are on the path of decriminalizing sex itself. Bestiality is in line for the same treatment. Don't know if it's next in line, but it's in line. It's coming.
Alleluia! Glory be.
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Aluzky
Citizen of Zooville
None less factual.
Sadly, it is a factor that can affect any zoo. From beigh caught red handed by an spying neighborhood, to a "friend" "zoo" black mailing you and releasing your information to the public because you didn't agree to be blackmailed, to some one uploading zooporn on facebook accidentally instead of doing it here, to some one losing his lapto and cops finding porn in it, to some one entering your home stealing your phone and with it, your porn being reported to cops, ect. Thousands of ways a zoo or bestialist could get in legal problem, and that can happen to any zoo. Even if it is not a "caught doing the act" some one could still release the information that you are a zoosexual or bestialist (even if you have never acted on it) and you could still lose your job, friends, family, etc. Or also suffer all that, just because you enjoy seeing zooporn but you never do the act.
You are doing victim blaming. Which is a very shitty thing to do. Tell me, how you avoid being robed at gun point? How you avoid being hacked? How you avoid the government spying on you? How you avoid being betrayed by your best friend? You are pretty much asking zoos and bestialists to never do something, never look porn and never have friend tht know about what you like. You pretty much asking zoos and bestialist to not exist. That is a very shitty thing to ask.
You are doing an anecdotal fallacy. Is like the stupid hard core smoker that smokes 5 packages a day for the past 80 years and is healthy as a mule and claims: I'm 100 year old I have smoke all the time for the past 80 years and I'm healthy. It is nonsense that smoking is bad. ←This is an anecdotal fallacy from that smoker. Him being lucky does not mean that smoking is deadly and harmful. You being lucky to avoid legal problem does not mean that thousand of other zoos or bestialists have not got in problems and that millions of bestialists and zoosexuals have to live their lives in fear, suffer depression and harm animals accidentally because they can't get a proper zooeducation because they are even afraid to look for it. Can't you understand how much harm as a whole anti-zoosexual laws cause? How much harm discrimination causes?
For give me, but the words you chose, shows that don't see it as bad when zoos or bestiality are miserable or fearful or depressed. Because of anti-zoo laws and discrimination. Maybe chose your words better?
The law is also responsible for the hate and discrimination against zoos and bestialist. Make anything illegla and a bigh chunk of society will have negative feelings against those who break the law. Even if you make something harmless like gay sex illegal, people will start discriminating gays because the law supports their discrimination.
Again victim blaming. They are being punished by something that should not be a crime and discriminating for having a sexuality that is not straight. By your logic, gays that got discriminated or jailed for being jail totally deserve it and they where asking for it.
FYI: I know around 10 zoos that have got screw badly by the law. And I have seen hundreds of cases on the news with zoos being caught. Just because you have never been afected, does not mean it can't happen or tht it is a minor problem, even if this is something that only afects 1% of zoos, it it still traumatizes 90% of zoos, causes discrimination, violations human rights and makes it harder for zoos to be accepted.
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Zeroebt
Tourist
You took things out on context and a bit extreme. Never said the acceptance is somehow connected to someone’s actions or evil acts is ok because that’s how they think. I think we can agree that being a zoo is not evil so raping an individual shouldn’t even be mentioned in this conversation. That’s how things get twisted.
But you stated your peace and your opinion. I’m not here to argue that. Can’t control someone’s thoughts as much as you’d like to. And there is evil in the world. Neither of those are the same right? Fact is, being a zoo is not an evil act. It could be if someone is being hurt in the process just like some human sex is not ok. That’s mainly the argument for not accepting zoo’s. But you cannot change someone if they’re not willing to reason, so why waste the effort? At least for me. But cheers either way!
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BlueBeard
Guest
Cheers either way!
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BlueBeard
Guest
You're so loopy!
I love you anyway and I'm so glad to be, for whatever reason, the occasion for you to get so much off your chest.
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Tailo
Guest
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BlueBeard
Guest
In this, we are all united!
And that's the light at the end of the tunnel I see coming. This is the point of the thread. Right on!
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BlueBeard
Guest
I am very interested in it, myself. Really want to hear more.
Sheesh, is that something that could be done through Zooville, you think? Paid members, options to subscribe to a kind of insurance protection?
Can't restore a person's life after the fact. And trials draw things out so long. When you just plead guilty, get it over quick, you get back to trying to rebuild your life faster.
Wondering... Very new angle on this, I think.
With the growth of un-censorable crypto transactions, the crowdfunding of heavily unpopular positions is becoming possible. I'm deeply moved with the financial support we've had for ZV thus far, and if we can come together to support our space to speak about zoo issues, we can come together eventually to fund research.
Aluzky
Citizen of Zooville
Seriously, a union or 501c3 corporations could be so useful for legal support, but also to help after the fact, like to pay for emotional counseling, psychological support, maybe the person can't get a job because of people not hiring people with a criminal record and he may need money to stabilize. So many things could be done to help with a collective found. Even pay for research to be done on zoos (obviously, non-bias research)
SpaceDragon
Tourist
No point in guessing how high those numbers are when it comes to trauma but if you've been on Beast Forum and read some of the stories on here there's no doubt that many zoos first felt horrid (guilt, shame, etc.) about themselves when they began exploring their animal sexuality. Maybe removing that taboo/legalizing it could also prevent people feeling negatively after the fact for first time zoos. (And also possibly prevent reckless behavior due to those negative feelings.)
What did I just read
I mean dude, that’s a lot of violence. You had some serious problems if you thought those were okay reactions to what was going on.