Spay and neuter / adopt don't shop

Estafantom

Estafantom

Citizen of Zooville
As zoos we of course prefer our dogs to remain intact unless medical issues require sterilisation. However, the most popular reason to spay and neuter is to prevent overpopulation so since this topic haven't been particulary mentionned as far as I know:
what is your opinion on the matter?


- I believe that surrender is the number one reason we should work on so people get to know dog body language and the basic needs the species has such as mastications, having specific dog friends and how socialisation is the key to prevent as much as possible reactivity issues.

- Ethical breeders are important so dog breeds remains in good health AND with proper socialisation and temperament selection.

-  Backyard breeding is not something I consider good as I don't find really responsible to breed more dogs just to..breed more dogs, when many of all ages are available for rehoming (rescues AND people giving away their pup via craiglist) or when you can find a good breeder.

- The second thing that should be mendatory in shelters instead pf spay and neuter in my opinion is to have the dogs have either a vasectomy or a tube ligature, so we don't create unwanted litters while keeping hormones (health and sexual needs related).
 
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You might want to have this moved into general topics....I dont think its controversial enough for the DF
 
Estafantom said:
I figured that since it's a BIG source of drama on social medias it would fit here, but I'll let the mods decide
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Seems like it would be a shame to be fighting over animal welfare here...but these nits would fight over the color of Pee, and do....regularly. Drama elsewhere on social media doesnt necessarily equate to drama here.
 
Estafantom said:
what is your opinion on the matter?
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Bullshit. Propaganda, money for veterinarians and animal protectionists, and the stupid simple dog owner's solution to not having to pay attention to their dog. Then they want to impose this view on other dog owners, typical human behavior. Especially those who are more experienced dog owners, because they envy them.

Estafantom said:
- I believe that surrender...
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This is already too complicated for the average person to understand and accept.

Estafantom said:
-  Backyard breeding is not something...
- Ethical breeders are important...
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Even among the official breeders, there are plenty of low-quality ones. And there aren't enough of them.
Backyard breeders are needed, but they should be regulated as well as breeders.

Estafantom said:
- The second thing that should be mendatory
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It will not spread massively, because it does not reduce the level of sexual behavior, it does not reduce sexual diseases. In order to prevent the birth of puppies, the solution is very simple, you have to lock the dog in the house.
If you want to make something mandatory, it is already bad. You know, even animal rights activists think that they are "doing good" when they ban zoophilia.


My opinion is that the dog is born sexual and that is its natural state, to touch it with surgery ONLY if it is necessary due to illness.
 
Estafantom said:
I figured that since it's a BIG source of drama on social medias it would fit here, but I'll let the mods decide
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There is no drama in this on a zoo site, we have sex with the animals and intact is necessary for sex.
Only non-zoo idiots dramatize this. Of those, only those dog owners who have a neuter dog and want to explain at all costs that they are doing the right thing. Exactly the same way they want to explain that zoophilia equals animal abuse.
And the earth is flat, yeah.
 
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Genital mutilation for convenience, as almost all "fixing" is, is bullshit. Be a better owner or don't have an animal.
It isn't healthy to do that sort of thing anyway.
 
MashaSobaka said:
Bullshit. Propaganda, money for veterinarians and animal protectionists, and the stupid simple dog owner's solution to not having to pay attention to their dog. Then they want to impose this view on other dog owners, typical human behavior. Especially those who are more experienced dog owners, because they envy them.


This is already too complicated for the average person to understand and accept.


Even among the official breeders, there are plenty of low-quality ones. And there aren't enough of them.
Backyard breeders are needed, but they should be regulated as well as breeders.


It will not spread massively, because it does not reduce the level of sexual behavior, it does not reduce sexual diseases. In order to prevent the birth of puppies, the solution is very simple, you have to lock the dog in the house.
If you want to make something mandatory, it is already bad. You know, even animal rights activists think that they are "doing good" when they ban zoophilia.


My opinion is that the dog is born sexual and that is its natural state, to touch it with surgery ONLY if it is necessary due to illness.
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Real shit. Our k9 companions aren't just some thing to have around. They are additions to a family. Castration is cruel unless necessary for continued life and love. Castration for "behavior" is disgusting and an absolute disrespect to the love that our dogs give us unconditionally, despite those who take their sexuality. Unless it means saving a life that still has a life to live, I will never spay or neuter.
 
RexShepherd said:
In a nutshell: Dog shelters demand complete utopia before someone can adopt a dog. They have a list of things the person/family has to do/have and if one thing is not possible then they won't allow you to adopt.
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Thank you. I totally agree on that part, especially here in France most shelters require a house if you want a big dog and of course a yard so people can be lazy and never walk their dogs.

I understand that some dogs may be reactive or have never been in a house, but most don't need a yard or a mansion.
 
RexShepherd said:
Yup. Here too. The way they demand absolute utopia... It's why I don't bother with those rescue organizations anymore. They find whatever stray dog they can find and ship them to Western Europe so they can be adopted. Needless to say these dogs have no idea what house life is like most of the time. There was a surge in them during Covid lockdowns. Dog trainers were booked completely full for months because everyone and their aunt just had to get a stray dog from Spain or Eastern Europe.
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I pick up, feed, medicate, ect, stray dogs and puppies on the streets where I live, but then again I know what I'm doing. All these people and their covid puppy "rescues" spreading misinfo like no tomorrow. Not to mention bringing diseases over with these dogs. Not to mention all those "trainers" fell into the furmommy money pile and can't train a dog worth shit.
 
RexShepherd said:
In a nutshell: Dog shelters demand complete utopia before someone can adopt a dog. They have a list of things the person/family has to do/have and if one thing is not possible then they won't allow you to adopt.
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This is the exact reason why I just nab mutts off the street. I live in a place where people dump puppies all the time. Why am I going to pay a couple hundred for a dog with mutilated genitals that I'm told I need a whole million acres for when I can get one for free with all the same issues and none of the "this is a hooman baby" junk?
 
dog breeders: dont buy puppies backyard breeder
also dog breeders: half your life's salary is the price of a puppy, in a 700-page contract I will tell you how you can keep her and raise her, what you can feed her, where you can take her, how many minutes you have to run with her, and I decide when it is appropriate for she to fart.
I will go after you several times a month and scold you for it if you don't do it this way, I will constantly ask you about it on messenger. If I'm in such a mood, I'll take the dog from you and take it to a competition or breeding. If it is of outstanding quality, I will buy it back from you.
You have to live in an expensive house, with a high salary, an expensive car, I will also look into your taxes and your bedroom closet.
 
originalnamehere said:
Really? How?
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Microchip, inspection, owner visit, punishment. This is also the case in Hungary. Microchip scanners found at veterinarians and gas stations can be used to find out the owner's phone number.The chip also comes with a booklet, which is an official document, such as an identity card or driver's license.
There are no stray dogs, although there are a few on the streets, but they all have owners and are returned to them. Just they usually run away again. :ROFLMAO:

Dogs such as in India, those who have no owner at all and are born on the street and live out their lives there halfwild, there is no such thing at all.
Although people love to lie about that, especially animal rights activists. :rolleyes:
 
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MashaSobaka said:
Microchip, inspection, owner visit, punishment. This is also the case in Hungary. Microchip scanners found at veterinarians and gas stations can be used to find out the owner's phone number.The chip also comes with a booklet, which is an official document, such as an identity card or driver's license.
There are no stray dogs, although there are a few on the streets, but they all have owners and are returned to them. Just they usually run away again. :ROFLMAO:

Dogs such as in India, those who have no owner at all and are born on the street and live out their lives there halfwild, there is no such thing at all.
Although people love to lie about that, especially animal rights activists. :rolleyes:
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Yeah, no thanks on the feral man eating dogs. Hard no from me lol.
Y'all have chip scanners at gas stations? Damn, the USA needs to step up it's game.
 
originalnamehere said:
Yeah, no thanks on the feral man eating dogs. Hard no from me lol.
Y'all have chip scanners at gas stations? Damn, the USA needs to step up it's game.
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Of course. On almost all of them. Only very small ones don't have it.
Moreover, there is also diesel at the all gas stations here. :ROFLMAO: It also comes with several tubes so that it can be loaded faster in larger cars.
 
Estafantom said:
As zoos we of course prefer our dogs to remain intact unless medical issues require sterilisation. However, the most popular reason to spay and neuter is to prevent overpopulation so since this topic haven't been particulary mentionned as far as I know:
what is your opinion on the matter?


- I believe that surrender is the number one reason we should work on so people get to know dog body language and the basic needs the species has such as mastications, having specific dog friends and how socialisation is the key to prevent as much as possible reactivity issues.

- Ethical breeders are important so dog breeds remains in good health AND with proper socialisation and temperament selection.

-  Backyard breeding is not something I consider good as I don't find really responsible to breed more dogs just to..breed more dogs, when many of all ages are available for rehoming (rescues AND people giving away their pup via craiglist) or when you can find a good breeder.

- The second thing that should be mendatory in shelters instead pf spay and neuter in my opinion is to have the dogs have either a vasectomy or a tube ligature, so we don't create unwanted litters while keeping hormones (health and sexual needs related).
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Its all a scam. A friend just went threw trying to adopt a dog from a shelter he said it was the worst experience of his life, The amount of time that was put into it, Numerous days he had to take off work for the meetings, All told the hole process took over a month and at the end they told him "you and your family don't deserve a dog". So he went to a breeder and got a puppy instead.

The spay /neuter conversation came up with my Vet a few weeks ago i was stunned when he told me this , He said there is no reason to ever spay or neuter a dog unless its a health problem there is zero scientific evidence that fixing your dog beneficial for it. There is a lot of evidence that shows the problems that it could create. My previous Vet would call me at least twice a month trying to book a appointment to fix my dog.. And that's why I'm not a client with them anymore. Its all a money grab.
 
MashaSobaka said:
dog breeders: dont buy puppies backyard breeder
also dog breeders: half your life's salary is the price of a puppy, in a 700-page contract I will tell you how you can keep her and raise her, what you can feed her, where you can take her, how many minutes you have to run with her, and I decide when it is appropriate for she to fart.
I will go after you several times a month and scold you for it if you don't do it this way, I will constantly ask you about it on messenger. If I'm in such a mood, I'll take the dog from you and take it to a competition or breeding. If it is of outstanding quality, I will buy it back from you.
You have to live in an expensive house, with a high salary, an expensive car, I will also look into your taxes and your bedroom closet.
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A good breeder do health test including hips, eyes and other common diseases. They select the parents to make the most balanced, healthy and confident puppies to avoid behavioral issues and surrenders because the dog is physically "broken" and it cost your arm.
They also introduce the pups to many situations like cats, other dogs, being confident enough to not be scared of any noises or big movements ect.

Reactivity is the most common issue you will find among shelters, you don't find dogs comming from those breeders there because the owners have been selected as the best fit for each puppy depending on the energy level, personnality and what people wants to do with their dog.

It's a lot of work and a lot of money (I'm sure you know vets are expensive af) and an ethical and responsible breeder will explain the price asked and give you all the details if asked.
 
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Estafantom said:
A good breeder do health test including hips, eyes and other common diseases.
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My second work at this as a co-breeder (not with my own dogs) so I know. Here, hip and retina testing is required, and for hungarian breeds DNA testing is also required. Other breeding processes are controlled by the breeders' association.
A lot of breeders are egoistic dick and believe that the puppy they sale is made of gold and that they have the right to have a say even after the sale. I never buy puppies from such breeders.

After neutering, what I hate the most are egoistic propagandist shelters, egoistic propagandist breeders and idiotic propagandist animal rights activists. Here, they create a constant hysteria and circus among the dog owners so that people hate each other. But I like sane and normal shelters/breeders/activist.
 
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MashaSobaka said:
After neutering, what I hate the most are egoistic propagandist shelters, egoistic propagandist breeders and idiotic propagandist animal rights activists. Here, they create a constant hysteria and circus among the dog owners so that people hate each other. But I like sane and normal shelters/breeders/activist.
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Some people like animals so much that they end up wanting the  perfect home by their standards, which is impossible because no one can do everything perfectly even with the best intentions.

I believe some of us zoos fall under this category sometimes including me when I say that I believe vasectomy should be done instead of neutering, even if I'm not for automatic sterilisations and as any surgery it should be discussed with a vet to see the pros and cons.
 
Estafantom said:
Some people like animals so much that they end up wanting the  perfect home by their standards, which is impossible because no one can do everything perfectly even with the best intentions.

I believe some of us zoos fall under this category sometimes including me when I say that I believe vasectomy should be done instead of neutering, even if I'm not for automatic sterilisations and as any surgery it should be discussed with a vet to see the pros and cons.
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You shouldn't be mutilating their genitals at all. That's gross.
 
Estafantom said:
As zoos we of course prefer our dogs to remain intact unless medical issues require sterilisation. However, the most popular reason to spay and neuter is to prevent overpopulation so since this topic haven't been particulary mentionned as far as I know:
what is your opinion on the matter?


- I believe that surrender is the number one reason we should work on so people get to know dog body language and the basic needs the species has such as mastications, having specific dog friends and how socialisation is the key to prevent as much as possible reactivity issues.

- Ethical breeders are important so dog breeds remains in good health AND with proper socialisation and temperament selection.

-  Backyard breeding is not something I consider good as I don't find really responsible to breed more dogs just to..breed more dogs, when many of all ages are available for rehoming (rescues AND people giving away their pup via craiglist) or when you can find a good breeder.

- The second thing that should be mendatory in shelters instead pf spay and neuter in my opinion is to have the dogs have either a vasectomy or a tube ligature, so we don't create unwanted litters while keeping hormones (health and sexual needs related).
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I think there's two sides to this that are equally true.


I do think we over-say/neuter for dogs with owners, but doing so with strays... I think there's a point to be made, and a similar one to hunting.

The reason most countries have limited time for hunting deer is because they want to prevent overpopulation. Overpopulation leads to starvation and for deer, it's far more productive to kill and eat them than it is to mass neuter the bucks. For what we would traditionally classify as pets...

I'd say that we don't have much of a better alternative. Starvation is far worse of an option than getting them fixed to keep populations in check.
 
Yaboiwut said:
I think there's two sides to this that are equally true.


I do think we over-say/neuter for dogs with owners, but doing so with strays... I think there's a point to be made, and a similar one to hunting.

The reason most countries have limited time for hunting deer is because they want to prevent overpopulation. Overpopulation leads to starvation and for deer, it's far more productive to kill and eat them than it is to mass neuter the bucks. For what we would traditionally classify as pets...

I'd say that we don't have much of a better alternative. Starvation is far worse of an option than getting them fixed to keep populations in check.
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Agreed, still I believe hormones sparing neuter should be done instead of desexing for strays and shelter pups
 
RexShepherd said:
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Reminds me of I an ad telling I saw today on an local adoption group, it said that people without mid to high salaries, that don't own a house and rent, that don't have a big garden, and weren't between 30 and 60 year old, should stop asking for dogs, since they will be rejected. But that they could still donate money in order to help dogs... And then the dogs at the refuges are crowded, stressed, ill, and stay there until they die because 'they can't find a family'...

Also, I saw in another ad an old lady about 75-80 y.o., asking for a dog, and they told her that she couldn't adopt a dog because she will probably die before the dog...
 
Estafantom said:
Agreed, still I believe hormones sparing neuter should be done instead of desexing for strays and shelter pups
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What do you mean, like only a partial hysterectomy (ovary sparing)?

The worst part is that lots of refuges and government campaigns only do a Oophorectomy (removing the ovaries and sparing the utherus), because it's the cheaper way (and easier, since it's mostly done by students), so they still leave the female dogs with the posibility of getting pyometra and uterine cancer, so they can't even claim the "health benefices of spaying"...


P.S.: https://ivcjournal.com/the-pros-of-partial-spay/
 
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