Sad news; Stallion past away; Need answers

spikedragon

spikedragon

Tourist
I live in a small farm with owners of jockey horses. A stallion died like hours ago with black liver and his stomach devastated "like from an acid".
Yesterday we thought it was just a colic and we made him walk circles for a few hours until he farted out droppings. He seemed to be little bit more relieved, but looking at his eyes they were still like "from Vietnam trauma".

I just would appreciate any thoughts or theories by experienced horse-people what could happened to him, even if it is possible someone over a fence could poison him and what could cause such damage.

Thank you for any reply.
 
spikedragon said:
I live in a small farm with owners of jockey horses. A stallion died like hours ago with black liver and his stomach devastated "like from an acid".
Yesterday we thought it was just a colic and we made him walk circles for a few hours until he farted out droppings. He seemed to be little bit more relieved, but looking at his eyes they were still like "from Vietnam trauma".

I just would appreciate any thoughts or theories by experienced horse-people what could happened to him, even if it is possible someone over a fence could poison him and what could cause such damage.

Thank you for any reply.
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My Personal Condolences

I'm Not a Biological type, I'm ridiculously Technical/electro-mechanical/Engineering sort, so I have nothing to offer as actual "Help".
 
Sorry to hear of your loss. I am not a veterinarian yet but do own several horses and have a small amount of medical knowledge from study rather than experience.
A possible cause may be related to Hepatic disease. This disease is common in large animals and causes increases in serum hepatic enzymes and total bile acid concentration. The bile acid would account for the condition of the stomach, and this also points to hepatic dysfunction, insult, disease, or failure. Although liver disease is especially common in horses it's progression to liver failure is not common. The black liver is usually an indication of liver failure but without examination further speculations are not possible.
If you own other horses it might be to your benefit to have your feed examined for any toxins. Also search recent pastures for toxins as their ingestion can bring this on, ingestion of toxic substances (eg, coal tar, cyanide, blue-green algae, plants, gossypol such as cottonseed) are associated with hepatic injury.
I am sorry that I can't be more helpful. Again I extend my deepest condolences.
 
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knotinterested said:
Sorry to hear of your loss. I am not a veterinarian yet but do own several horses and have a small amount of medical knowledge from study rather than experience.
A possible cause may be related to Hepatic disease. This disease is common in large animals and causes increases in serum hepatic enzymes and total bile acid concentration. The bile acid would account for the condition of the stomach, and this also points to hepatic dysfunction, insult, disease, or failure. Although liver disease is especially common in horses it's progression to liver failure is not common. The black liver is usually an indication of liver failure but without examination further speculations are not possible.
If you own other horses it might be to your benefit to have your feed examined for any toxins. Also search recent pastures for toxins as their ingestion can bring this on, ingestion of toxic substances (eg, coal tar, cyanide, blue-green algae, plants, gossipy) are associated with hepatic injury.
I am sorry that I can't be more helpful. Again I extend my deepest condolences.
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It was raining last two-three days ago, so he was indoors at that time; We thought he ate a wet grass after, ergo colic assumption.
If the Hepatic disease was the case, can it even erode down the stomach into shreds? (I haven't seen the stomach myself yet, only reddish guts after samples taken, but it was described to me like so.)

Also I have heard he got some grinded oats (if my translation is correct) the day he was still apparently fine.
 
spikedragon said:
It was raining last two-three days ago, so he was indoors at that time; We thought he ate a wet grass after, ergo colic assumption.
If the Hepatic disease was the case, can it even erode down the stomach into shreds? (I haven't seen the stomach myself yet, only reddish guts after samples taken, but it was described to me like so.)
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A large bile concentration is equivalent to a large volume of hydrochloric acid. Damages such as you describe can occur, but as to the degree of damage anything I would say is just a speculation from your description. Those doing the immediate examination would be more knowledgeable as to the causes of this amount of damage.
 
knotinterested said:
Sorry to hear of your loss. I am not a veterinarian yet but do own several horses and have a small amount of medical knowledge from study rather than experience.
A possible cause may be related to Hepatic disease. This disease is common in large animals and causes increases in serum hepatic enzymes and total bile acid concentration. The bile acid would account for the condition of the stomach, and this also points to hepatic dysfunction, insult, disease, or failure. Although liver disease is especially common in horses it's progression to liver failure is not common. The black liver is usually an indication of liver failure but without examination further speculations are not possible.
If you own other horses it might be to your benefit to have your feed examined for any toxins. Also search recent pastures for toxins as their ingestion can bring this on, ingestion of toxic substances (eg, coal tar, cyanide, blue-green algae, plants, gossypol such as cottonseed) are associated with hepatic injury.
I am sorry that I can't be more helpful. Again I extend my deepest condolences.
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You mentioned a "coal tar". Does that mean like gas/oil products like from industrial vehicles? Like leaked brake fluid or naphtha into a grass?
But horses are not that stupid to go for such odd smell, aren't they?
 
spikedragon said:
You mentioned a "coal tar". Does that mean like gas/oil products like from industrial vehicles? Like leaked brake fluid or naphtha into a grass?
But horses are not that stupid to go for such odd smell, aren't they?
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I know what you mean but odors that we smell such as the products you mention are fresh or right out of the container. Over time these odors can dissipate leaving behind their toxic residue. Possibly when they are losing their odor because of chemical reactions they may produce an odor that is more appealing to the animal. It's an unknown like the dog licking up the antifreeze that leaked from the car.
 
Wasbitchpolly said:
Nobody here is qualified to give answers it’s best left to the professiona
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knotinterested said:
Hopefully the Necropsy will yield a better picture and you will be able to reason it out at that time.
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Sure, but at least I got more understanding or at least hints about what could go wrong and so I thank you for your two cents.
It is just shame that he just won a first place on his race a few weeks ago and now that happened and it is such loss for my relatives/owners.

I will post the result when they will come to put possible awareness for others.
 
The big point is,,was it something specific to the stallion..or was it something he ate ? If the latter..is it possible other's in the herd could have had access as well ?
 
Let the medical people tell you for sure, but meanwhile, you might want to consult your local Agriculture Extension Service for a list of toxic plants known to grow in your County....many plants which seem harmless can be toxic....Clover and Buttercups come to mind first. Survey your pasture area for those, for Trees that reproduce via Samara ( those little "helicopter-seeds") that fall from trees periodcally, AND for signs of cribbing on wooden fences, especially if made of pressure-treated wood. ALL of the above CAN be toxic and some are not commonly known...Box Elder, a maple, is very much suspect in such cases, and some other maple species can be bad as well.
 
saddlebum66 said:
AND for signs of cribbing on wooden fences, especially if made of pressure-treated wood.
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Iam not sure what do you mean by "cribbing wood". Do you mean like "puzzle-like" locks?
Fences are made just from rough slender logs from a local woods.


saddlebum66 said:
ALL of the above CAN be toxic and some are not commonly known...Box Elder, a maple, is very much suspect in such cases, and some other maple species can be bad as well.
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Iam from central of Europe, so maples are not that common.
 
spikedragon said:
Iam not sure what do you mean by "cribbing wood". Do you mean like "puzzle-like" locks?
Fences are made just from rough slender logs from a local woods.



Iam from central of Europe, so maples are not that common.
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Put "horse cribbing" into google. You'll get more results than you can read in a lifetime. The first couple I just got back do a good job of explaining it.
 
"Health effects
There is evidence that stomach ulcers may lead to a horse becoming a cribber, and that cribbing may be a coping mechanism in response to stress."

Ohhh fuck... The Occam's razor; I worry it is more easier for the owners to blame anyone poisoning him than blaming themselves.
Let's see what the test results will say.
 
spikedragon said:
"Health effects
There is evidence that stomach ulcers may lead to a horse becoming a cribber, and that cribbing may be a coping mechanism in response to stress."

Ohhh fuck... The Occam's razor; I worry it is more easier for the owners to blame anyone poisoning him than blaming themselves.
Let's see what the test results will say.
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And racing horses are notorious cribbers. While it's EXTREMELY unlikely that cribbing had anything to do with his death (other than perhaps being a symptom or side-effect of whatever actually killed him) it's quite possible he had ulcers. Depending on which studies you believe, you can find research that says anywhere from half, to more than 90% of race horses have ulcers to some degree.
 
UR20Z said:
And racing horses are notorious cribbers. While it's EXTREMELY unlikely that cribbing had anything to do with his death (other than perhaps being a symptom or side-effect of whatever actually killed him) it's quite possible he had ulcers. Depending on which studies you believe, you can find research that says anywhere from half, to more than 90% of race horses have ulcers to some degree.
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I guess the stress and pressure got to be common among hard-trained horses.
 
spikedragon said:
I guess the stress and pressure got to be common among hard-trained horses.
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Exactly. Same goes for hard-campaigning showjumpers and similar - the stress of a constant stream of strange places, sounds, smells, and animals, plus the trailering that almost always goes with working the circuits, screwy hours, wildly varying feed and water quality, and all the rest of it combine to make for a horse that's rarely happy, and too often, outright unhealthy. Which is one of the primary reasons I have no heart for dealing with show critters - I can't just kick back and say to myself "Oh well, at least <insert name of horse here> is winning." A few scraps of ribbon or a handful of money is no compensation for having to deal with the injuries, illness, and all-too-often, death that "comes with the territory" of even mid-level showing and/or racing.

At the same time, I can't ignore the ugly reality: It's been said, and I tend to agree, that horses as a species would likely have gone extinct 75 or a hundred years ago if it weren't for the fact that people still want to race and/or show them. We tamed them and put them to work as grunt labor umpty-hundred years ago, rode them to their deaths by the thousands, if not millions, in our idiotic wars that they had no comprehension of, and in so many ways, exploited them for our various purposes to "advance" human society - sometimes kindly, sometimes cruelly - then when the industrial revolution hit, we basically threw them away as useless. Helluva "thank you" for the hundreds, maybe thousands, of years they kept us afloat, huh?
 
UR20Z I would agree with you on animals that are racing and perhaps even rodeo animals, but animals that go to livestock shows are much different. We show horses and bulls at shows 8 times a year. Unless we were willing to travel to shows that are over a thousand miles away we are limited to the shows that are much closer to home. So our animals enjoy their freedom between shows and because these events are so many weeks apart the animals have a very low stress level. Sure I want to win that top prize just like any other, but I'm not going to go way out of my way to increase my chances of winning. Most of the people I run into at these shows are the same people I see at every other show. I suppose the rodeo circuit is a bit more demanding on those animals and I'm certain that the horse racing circuit demands the most from their animals.
The sad part about the thoroughbreds is that they can win bunches of races but if they never win the top races like the Kentucky Derby then their value only increases marginally.
 
knotinterested said:
UR20Z I would agree with you on animals that are racing and perhaps even rodeo animals, but animals that go to livestock shows are much different. We show horses and bulls at shows 8 times a year. Unless we were willing to travel to shows that are over a thousand miles away we are limited to the shows that are much closer to home. So our animals enjoy their freedom between shows and because these events are so many weeks apart the animals have a very low stress level. Sure I want to win that top prize just like any other, but I'm not going to go way out of my way to increase my chances of winning. Most of the people I run into at these shows are the same people I see at every other show. I suppose the rodeo circuit is a bit more demanding on those animals and I'm certain that the horse racing circuit demands the most from their animals.
The sad part about the thoroughbreds is that they can win bunches of races but if they never win the top races like the Kentucky Derby then their value only increases marginally.
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While it's true that low-level showing is relatively "painless", that just isn't true for events that have more than about a grand in the prize-kitty. Dunno how "deep" in the scene you are, but some of the things I've seen happen at shows where the total prize money involved was as little as $500 would make you absolutely sick - The doping, the sabotage of competitors (or more specifically, their horses - ever had to deal with putting down a horse that's had a muck shovel used on it to cut the tendon above the hock? I have... The slimebag that did it was almost certainly, though I doubt it could ever be proven in court, a 14 year old girl who was afraid that the person the horse belonged to would beat her out of the $175 top prize in the class! The gal who lost the horse borrowed another one to ride the class, walked away taking 5th, just ahead of the girl I'm sure, but can't prove, did the deed, and from talk I overheard, wasn't much concerned about it, beyond the fact that the costs of the horse being put down and disposed of was a bite out of her budget - "But the insurance will get me a new one and I'll beat her again next year" was the last thing I heard out of her.) the backstabbing and politics... I was only able to stomach part of a single season - If I hadn't bailed out, I'd probably be in prison right now, after losing all hint of control and going on a shooting rampage. Basically, if it's a show that'll get time on TV (however obscure the channel might be... RFD-TV at 4AM, anyone?) it's a show where the majority of entrants are all about "Win, and if the horse breaks, we'll just get a new one."

What you describe is what I call "backyard" showing. No insult intended, just a label I use. You probably haven't seen the kind of shit that goes on in the barns where "real" money is at stake. Count yourself lucky for that. Saying "it just ain't pretty" would likely be the understatement of the century. For the (I hesitate to use the word, but...) people involved at the top end, a horse is no different than a pickup truck - expendable, replaceable, a commodity to be kicked to the curb the instant it stops making a buck. I wish that wasn't the case, but after the time I spent working for a woman who was big in the mid-level shows, I had a whole bunch of illusions shattered, and know beyond any doubt that I'm understating how ugly things really are in the industry.
 
UR20Z Yes you're right. We only show at some county fairs and 2 state fairs. Our type of show is one where we walk the horses around in front of the judges and then they come out to look over the animal. They are judged on their poise and looks and loose points if their markings are much out of the symmetrical balance. Of course scares or blemishes will also loose points. Their teeth are examined and the condition of their hoofs, and even their main and tail. Their posture is graded and after all is said and done you just hope that your horse has something appealing to the judges to give you that 1st place ribbon and the $1000 dollar check.
We don't ride the animals in our shows so there is that much less to worry about because I have seen animals that are absolutely gorgeous until they are ridden. Then they and the rider are either out of sync or the animal just doesn't have that graceful walk and gallop that they want.
Now I have heard some of the horror stories associated with animals in rodeo events but really never any in the show category except for the use of dyes to cover up blemishes and one time I heard about someone using some kind of epoxy to cover a cracked hoof.
In our shows I clean them good and brush them out. I cheat a little by using 'Mop & Shine' in the water when I rense them so it adds a shine to their coat. I don't braid the main or tail I just brush it out so it looks good. I file the outer edges of the hoof and go over it to make it even, and then we apply clear nail polish to it. That is about all you can do without cheating for real. But if you get caught cheating then you pay a fine and maybe get banned if you get caught a 2nd time.
Back to the stress that is put on animals if you know your animals well enough even at our low stress level then you will see a difference in how they act when you have them at these shows. They always are very happy to return home. I've been nugged a lot of times when bringing them home and getting them back to their stalls. I have a good relationship with my horses and they will come to me even if I just walk through the pasture. Now the bulls, they are different but even so there are times that they will come up to you when the horses are not close by.
 
Oh I forgot to say that when we show our animals we have 2 of our hands go along as both security and as handlers. They actually stay with our animals for the duration of the show. They even sleep with them. They don't mind because of the extra pay and our concern is more theft then sabotage. Theft has occurred but I've never heard of sabotage at our low level.
 
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