In the US, we'll have to fight it in the courts

Then they don't have rights. One can claim or assert a "right". But until that claim is supported either by congress or the supreme court, the right doesn't, legally exist.

Women asserted their right to suffrage for over 80 years before suffrage was "granted" by an act of congress.

Read what Supreme court Justice Robert B Taney wrote in 1857 about black people

"All people of African descent, free or slave, were not United States citizens and therefore had no right to sue in federal court. In addition, he wrote that the Fifth Amendment protected slave owner rights because slaves were their legal property."

Africans were slaves, and simply property. It wasn't until 1868, that blacks were made full citizens, again by an act of congress.

You're wrong -- non-human animals have inherent (albeit unrecognized) rights.

Women always had rights -- but they were not recognized until the 20th century -- before then, when women were asserting their rights, they acknowledged that their rights existed (even if said rights were not recognized by society).

Rights cannot be given or taken away by a government or legislature -- they exist independent of those governing bodies.
 
I guess you haven't read or don't understand the Federal Constitutional Court's own press release? Here, I'll even put it in big bold letters for you.

Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals

Nice but try again.

It is within the - basically broad - scope for assessment and assessment by the legislature to include protection against forced sexual assaults for the well-being of animals and their species-appropriate husbandry.

The regulation made by the legislator is otherwise proportionate. In particular, the severity of the intervention is not out of proportion to the desired success. Section 3 sentence 1 no. 13 TierSchG intervenes in the complainants' sexual self-determination. However, the offense only applies if the animal is forced to behave in a manner contrary to the species. In addition, the legislature does not make use of criminal law here, but instead designs the norm as a mere administrative offense, the pursuit and punishment of which is based on the principle of opportunity (see Section 47 (1) sentence 1 of the Administrative Offenses Act) and is therefore at the discretion of the prosecuting authority.


The reason it was "unsuccessful" and wikipedia with 3 other documents prove zoo is legal in germany was that the 2013 law was never against zoophilia. There was no need to make a constitutional case because the law was against the forced rape of animals.

That was the whole point. The 2013 law is against FORCED zoophilia, not against unforced zoophilia. Thats why they specifically put that wording in there "behaving contrary to the animals nature" because if you werent such a foaming at the mouth anti-zoo bigot, you could read that text means zoophilia according to the animals nature is perfectly legal.
 
I would point out that, in societies where women NEVER had a right to consent to sex or not to consent to sex, it was absolutely normal, proper, and expected for women to be forced into arranged marriages, and her husband was skillful or not skillful at figuring out how to make her obey his will. While there was such a thing as a concept of rape outside the context of a marriage, what happened when a woman became a wife was that she was socially and morally obligated to cooperate, whether she wanted to or not. If she made an undignified fuss over it, then this was contemptible.

Marriage often occurred when women were only 14 year old children or sometimes younger (assuming they started menstruating at 12, they were assumed to need a couple of years of instruction by their mothers, but if they started at 8, they could therefore be married as early as 10), so their minds were still profoundly impressionable. If they ever did resist when their husbands consummated their marriages, they eventually just felt guilty over that resistance because society told them that a disobedient wife was shameful and despicable. By the time they were mature adult women, they had never heard of any other way to exist, and the concept of "women's equality" would have sounded to them like a lot of nonsense, maybe even a Satanic plot. When change came, many women were quite frankly against it and fearful of it.

I am also not entirely confident that those societies were less moral than ours. Their way of life made quite a lot of practical sense from their point-of-view, especially directly prior to industrialization. The outsides of badly constructed hand-made homes were constantly falling apart, and it wasn't going to get any warmer. Men, even ones with less than stellar imagination and intelligence, were the ones stuck with going out in subzero temperatures to patch holes and redo thatching. Firewood had to be split BY HAND. Fields had to be plowed, and even if you had horses or mules or some oxen, holding the plow steady while it was being dragged forward was dangerous and difficult and physically demanding. If you did not have draft animals, you had to find a way to drag a more primitive scratch plow through the earth by hand, which probably involved you and a half-dozen other men lashing ropes to it and laboring to drag it through the permafrost and racing against the clock and the moon to get the field ready in time for the planting of the crops. If you did have animals, they started moving forward and pulling the plow exactly when you bullied them into doing so by beating them with a lash that would cut human flesh to ribbons. Would you have been a Nobel Prize-winning engineer in a different world? Good for you, big boy: take your genius brain, and do up the harness so that the horse pulls the plow straighter, thank you. This is what you had to do, in order to save your own life, during peace-time under the most ideal conditions conceivable.

Women were not available to do this sort of work because they had problems of their own going on inside. They had to keep watch over household inventory, manufacture candles, help with beekeeping so that there would be wax for the candles, manufacture soap, and use a mortar and pestle to mill their own grain because they did not live close enough to a mill or did not have enough family wealth to go and buy a bag of flour. While there were mills and other businesses that manufactured many of these products even during Medieval times, you still had to live near one and have sufficient wealth in order to buy them, which was not always your luck, and the miller got sick or got old and had to hand the mill over to a disinterested son that really wanted to be a farrier. If your husband was not a skilled artisan like a cobbler and therefore reasonably wealthy, then you did the work yourself by hand, and you liked it because it was that or lie down and croak, ma'am. That happened often enough, too! Women faded away and died from melancholia or came down with female hysteria. The ones that stayed sane were the ones that found something to do and kept doing it as long as they could, and nobody was even sure if they were really sane: people just needed the product and didn't dare look too closely at where it came from.

“It reminds me of that old joke- you know, a guy walks into a psychiatrist's office and says, hey doc, my brother's crazy! He thinks he's a chicken. Then the doc says, why don't you turn him in? Then the guy says, I would but I need the eggs. I guess that's how I feel about relationships. They're totally crazy, irrational, and absurd, but we keep going through it because we need the eggs.” -- Woody Allan.

In our privileged times, it is tempting to look scornfully upon people that lived differently, but I am not going to go that route. Those people had problems of their own.

Cultures change, and it is normal for cultures to change. This is the only constant. To regard things as absolute, fixed, and eternal usually causes more trouble and more complications than it is worth.

The roles of animals in our lives is changing. We are in the middle of a wave of animal rights legislation. It's going to get bigger. There is a positive side to this, including from the standpoints of zoos who are also animal-lovers because they are zoos, but we have been getting caught in the crossfire of warring ideologies.
 
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Nice but try again.

It is within the - basically broad - scope for assessment and assessment by the legislature to include protection against forced sexual assaults for the well-being of animals and their species-appropriate husbandry.

The regulation made by the legislator is otherwise proportionate. In particular, the severity of the intervention is not out of proportion to the desired success. Section 3 sentence 1 no. 13 TierSchG intervenes in the complainants' sexual self-determination. However, the offense only applies if the animal is forced to behave in a manner contrary to the species. In addition, the legislature does not make use of criminal law here, but instead designs the norm as a mere administrative offense, the pursuit and punishment of which is based on the principle of opportunity (see Section 47 (1) sentence 1 of the Administrative Offenses Act) and is therefore at the discretion of the prosecuting authority.


The reason it was "unsuccessful" and wikipedia with 3 other documents prove zoo is legal in germany was that the 2013 law was never against zoophilia. There was no need to make a constitutional case because the law was against the forced rape of animals.

That was the whole point. The 2013 law is against FORCED zoophilia, not against unforced zoophilia. Thats why they specifically put that wording in there "behaving contrary to the animals nature" because if you werent such a foaming at the mouth anti-zoo bigot, you could read that text means zoophilia according to the animals nature is perfectly legal.
The significance of that rejection is what I was trying to sort out with @Tailo about how the law works in Germany. I know that, in the United States, failing to get a case heard basically means nothing gets done, so an important point, here, is whether the grounds that are given for rejection sets a binding precedent under German law.

@Tailo has not participated for a few days, so do you or anybody else have a clarification on this?

If reasons given for not hearing a case are legally binding there, then a rejection with this particular phrasing is as good as a victory.

From the sound of it, the Germans felt that there were truly violent abuses against animals going on, and narrowing their focus to dealing with those made more logical sense than pursuing a broader scope.
 
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Nice but try again.

It is within the - basically broad - scope for assessment and assessment by the legislature to include protection against forced sexual assaults for the well-being of animals and their species-appropriate husbandry.

The regulation made by the legislator is otherwise proportionate. In particular, the severity of the intervention is not out of proportion to the desired success. Section 3 sentence 1 no. 13 TierSchG intervenes in the complainants' sexual self-determination. However, the offense only applies if the animal is forced to behave in a manner contrary to the species. In addition, the legislature does not make use of criminal law here, but instead designs the norm as a mere administrative offense, the pursuit and punishment of which is based on the principle of opportunity (see Section 47 (1) sentence 1 of the Administrative Offenses Act) and is therefore at the discretion of the prosecuting authority.


The reason it was "unsuccessful" and wikipedia with 3 other documents prove zoo is legal in germany was that the 2013 law was never against zoophilia. There was no need to make a constitutional case because the law was against the forced rape of animals.

That was the whole point. The 2013 law is against FORCED zoophilia, not against unforced zoophilia. Thats why they specifically put that wording in there "behaving contrary to the animals nature" because if you werent such a foaming at the mouth anti-zoo bigot, you could read that text means zoophilia according to the animals nature is perfectly legal.

Wow, LOL, OK I will try once more. I quoted from the German federal courts, own press release.

"Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals"

Again what part of the above, don't you seem to understand!!!!

Also from the press release

Facts: The constitutional complaint is directed against Section 3 Clause 1 No. 13 of the Animal Protection Act (TierSchG), according to which it is forbidden to use an animal for its own sexual acts or to train or make available for the sexual acts of third parties and thereby force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species. Violations can be punished according to § 18 Paragraph 1 No. 1 and Paragraph 4 TierSchG as an administrative offense with a fine of up to twenty-five thousand euros.

The 2013 law did indeed make besitiality a crime. The 2013 law states, "It is forbidden, to use an animal for their own sexual acts or to train or make available for the sexual acts of third parties and thereby force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species.

I suggest you look up the meaning of the term "thereby" Definition, Thereby- by that means; as a result of that. Thereby is used to connect two events: because of A, B happened.

The law clearly means that once you have sex with an animal, you have forced it to behave in a manner contrary to the species, thus guilty of an administrative offence under the law, with a fine of up to twenty-five thousand euros.

The 2013 law said NOTHING about using "physical force."

Again I quote from the courts OWN press release, - "The offense only applies if the animal is forced to behave in a manner contrary to the species." The sex (The offense) is what "forces the animal to behave in a manner contrary to the species." It doesn't say that animal has to be "Physically forced" into the sex.

If the law was only meant to prohibit forced sex, the legislature would've specifically stated that it in the law. But it didn't, because the law was intended to make bestiality, itself a crime.

I noticed you claimed Wikipedia as a source. LOL, nice try. No wonder you're so confused.

@JTHorse wrote, "because if you werent such a foaming at the mouth anti-zoo bigot" -Yep once you start throwing out insults, you know you've lost the argument.

Once again, please read the Federal courts own press release. -
Press release No. 11/2016 of February 18, 2016 Decision of December 8, 2015
1 BvR 1864/14

Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals
 
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Wow, LOL, OK I will try once more. I quoted from the German federal courts, own press release.

"Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals"

Again what part of the above, don't you seem to understand!!!!

Also from the press release

Facts: The constitutional complaint is directed against Section 3 Clause 1 No. 13 of the Animal Protection Act (TierSchG), according to which it is forbidden to use an animal for its own sexual acts or to train or make available for the sexual acts of third parties and thereby force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species. Violations can be punished according to § 18 Paragraph 1 No. 1 and Paragraph 4 TierSchG as an administrative offense with a fine of up to twenty-five thousand euros.

The 2013 law did indeed make besitiality a crime. The 2013 law states, "It is forbidden, to use an animal for their own sexual acts or to train or make available for the sexual acts of third parties and thereby force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species.

I suggest you look up the meaning of the term "thereby" Definition, Thereby- by that means; as a result of that. Thereby is used to connect two events: because of A, B happened.

The law clearly means that once you have sex with an animal, you have forced it to behave in a manner contrary to the species, thus guilty of an administrative offence under the law, with a fine of up to twenty-five thousand euros.

The 2013 law said NOTHING about using "physical force."

Again I quote from the courts OWN press release, - "The offense only applies if the animal is forced to behave in a manner contrary to the species." The sex (The offense) is what "forces the animal to behave in a manner contrary to the species." It doesn't say that animal has to be "Physically forced" into the sex.

If the law was only meant to prohibit forced sex, the legislature would've specifically stated that it in the law. But it didn't, because the law was intended to make bestiality, itself a crime.

I noticed you claimed Wikipedia as a source. LOL, nice try. No wonder you're so confused.

@JTHorse wrote, "because if you werent such a foaming at the mouth anti-zoo bigot" -Yep once you start throwing out insults, you know you've lost the argument.

Once again, please read the Federal courts own press release. -
Press release No. 11/2016 of February 18, 2016 Decision of December 8, 2015
1 BvR 1864/14

Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals

Bestiality is legal in Germany. * (so long as not forced)

Checkmate

https://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichte...lle-selbstbestimmung-sex-mit-tieren-verboten/

"However, the contested standard does not violate the principle of certainty of Article 103.2 of the Basic Law, nor does it violate the "animal lovers" in their fundamental rights, according to the BVerfG."

"The judges also had no reservations about the proportionality of the regulation. The severity of the intervention is not out of proportion to the desired success. Section 3 sentence 1 no. 13 TierSchG intervenes in the complainants' sexual self-determination. However, the facts only apply if the animal is forced to behave in a manner contrary to the species. In addition, the legislature does not make use of criminal law here, but instead designs the norm as a mere administrative offense, the prosecution and punishment of which follows the opportunity principle and is therefore at the discretion of the prosecuting authority."
 
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Bestiality is legal in Germany. * (so long as not forced)

Checkmate

https://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichte...lle-selbstbestimmung-sex-mit-tieren-verboten/

"However, the contested standard does not violate the principle of certainty of Article 103.2 of the Basic Law, nor does it violate the "animal lovers" in their fundamental rights, according to the BVerfG."

"The judges also had no reservations about the proportionality of the regulation. The severity of the intervention is not out of proportion to the desired success. Section 3 sentence 1 no. 13 TierSchG intervenes in the complainants' sexual self-determination. However, the facts only apply if the animal is forced to behave in a manner contrary to the species. In addition, the legislature does not make use of criminal law here, but instead designs the norm as a mere administrative offense, the prosecution and punishment of which follows the opportunity principle and is therefore at the discretion of the prosecuting authority."


Yet again, you haven't addressed the Federal courts own press release.

"Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the offense of sexual acts with animals"

So I'll ask again, what part of the above, don't you grasp?
 
Yet again, you haven't addressed the Federal courts own press release.

"Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the offense of sexual acts with animals"

So I'll ask again, what part of the above, don't you grasp?
The part where you misconstrue that clear language where bestiality is made illegal.

I never read any text there prohibiting bestiality clearly like US laws will instead I see an ethical law that stops animal rapists but not ethical bestiality.
 
Oh dear, here we go again.

The 2013 law states, "It is PROHIBITED," Do you know what prohibited means? "to use an animal for their own sexual acts. Do you know what sexual acts are? "or to train or make available for the sexual acts of third parties and "thereby force" Do you know what the word, thereby means? them to behave in a manner contrary to the species.

Where does the 2013 law say anything about the animal needing to be "physically force" (Raped)

The constitutional complaint is directed against Section 3 Clause 1 No. 13 of the Animal Protection Act (TierSchG), according to which it is forbidden to use an animal for its own sexual acts or to train or make available for the sexual acts of third parties and thereby force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species. Violations can be punished according to § 18 Paragraph 1 No. 1 and Paragraph 4 TierSchG as an administrative offense with a fine of up to twenty-five thousand euros.

What don't you grasp about the above statement from the courts own press release?

The 2013 law criminalized sex with animals. Which is why the court's own press release states,
Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals
 
Oh dear, here we go again.

The 2013 law states, "It is PROHIBITED," Do you know what prohibited means? "to use an animal for their own sexual acts. Do you know what sexual acts are? "or to train or make available for the sexual acts of third parties and "thereby force" Do you know what the word, thereby means? them to behave in a manner contrary to the species.

Where does the 2013 law say anything about the animal needing to be "physically force" (Raped)

The constitutional complaint is directed against Section 3 Clause 1 No. 13 of the Animal Protection Act (TierSchG), according to which it is forbidden to use an animal for its own sexual acts or to train or make available for the sexual acts of third parties and thereby force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species. Violations can be punished according to § 18 Paragraph 1 No. 1 and Paragraph 4 TierSchG as an administrative offense with a fine of up to twenty-five thousand euros.

What don't you grasp about the above statement from the courts own press release?

The 2013 law criminalized sex with animals. Which is why the court's own press release states,
Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals

Your ignoring the text of the law. If force wasn't an issue, they wouldn't have put the word "FORCED" in there. It would simply say "sexual assault of an animal".

Forced sexual assault in the language obviously means there is sexual interaction that isn't forced.

Again, the court is smarter than you, because your such a foaming at the mouth anti-zoo bigot, because they worded it in a way you think its illegal, when its actually not, and wouldn't be prosecuted. Its for bigot's to believe they got their way but didn't, hence not a violation of the "animal lovers" rights.

The constitutional challenge was successful because they clarified that law wasn't anti-zoo but anti-rape/abuse. Thats like saying D.C. vs Heller was un-successful because it didn't confirm the 2nd amendment, all it did was clarify that guns were always a right.
 
Your ignoring the text of the law. If force wasn't an issue, they wouldn't have put the word "FORCED" in there. It would simply say "sexual assault of an animal".

Forced sexual assault in the language obviously means there is sexual interaction that isn't forced.

Again, the court is smarter than you, because your such a foaming at the mouth anti-zoo bigot, because they worded it in a way you think its illegal, when its actually not, and wouldn't be prosecuted. Its for bigot's to believe they got their way but didn't, hence not a violation of the "animal lovers" rights.

The constitutional challenge was successful because they clarified that law wasn't anti-zoo but anti-rape/abuse. Thats like saying D.C. vs Heller was un-successful because it didn't confirm the 2nd amendment, all it did was clarify that guns were always a right.

The constitutional complaint is not admitted for decision.

Do you understand that above statement?

Well I'll help you. When the Federal Court does not admit a case for decision, it means the complaint had "No constitutional significance" The complaint was in essence, "thrown out."

BUT, If the Court had "ACCEPTED" (Which it didn't) the constitutional complaint, "The court shall declare in its decision which provision of the Basic Law was violated and by which act or omission.

"The Federal Constitutional Court may find an act of public authority to be unconstitutional, reverse an unconstitutional court decision and remand the matter to a competent court, as well as void a law.

None of which was done here by the court. Which for the umpteenth time is why the courts own press release states.

Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals
 
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The constitutional complaint is not admitted for decision.

Do you understand that above statement?

Well I'll help you. When the Federal Court does not admit a case for decision, it means the complaint had "No constitutional significance" The complaint was in essence, "thrown out."

BUT, If the Court had "granted" the constitutional complaint, "The court shall declare in its decision which provision of the Basic Law was violated and by which act or omission.

"The Federal Constitutional Court may find an act of public authority to be unconstitutional, reverse an unconstitutional court decision and remand the matter to a competent court, as well as void a law.

None of which was done here by the court. Which for the umpteenth time, the courts, own press release states.

Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals

The complaint wasn't actually a complaint and mis-understood. As verified by the release.

1. Bestiality is illegal in Germany.
*only if it's forced

2. Bestiality is legal in Germany. *only if not forced.

Both above are true, yet one is more acceptable to the general public.

Apparently, you don't know what the word "Forced" means.

Checkmate.

Also I know zoos in Germany who confirmed this law.
 
The complaint wasn't actually a complaint and mis-understood. As verified by the release.

1. Bestiality is illegal in Germany.
*only if it's forced

2. Bestiality is legal in Germany. *only if not forced.

Both above are true, yet one is more acceptable to the general public.

Apparently, you don't know what the word "Forced" means.

Checkmate.

Also I know zoos in Germany who confirmed this law.

Oh some Zoo's in Germany say it's legal LOL. You can claim bestiality is legal all you want, that doesn't make it so.

Once again!!! What part of the Federal courts own press release don't you grasp.

Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals
 
Oh some Zoo's in Germany say it's legal LOL. You can claim bestiality is legal all you want, that doesn't make it so.

Once again!!! What part of the Federal courts own press release don't you grasp.

Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the criminal offense of sexual acts with animals

The spoiler was just the icing on the cake for my evidence. I'm sure your line of reasoning and terrible legal analysis will stay permanent for all to see you for the anti-zoo you are.

1580179842073.png
 
The spoiler was just the icing on the cake for my evidence. I'm sure your line of reasoning and terrible legal analysis will stay permanent for all to see you for the anti-zoo you are.

View attachment 45408

OK, you made me rub your face in it again.

Again from the Federal courts own press release.

"Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the offense of sexual acts with animals"

"With the decision published today, the 3rd chamber of the First Senate of the Federal Constitutional Court did not accept a constitutional complaint against an administrative offense in the Animal Welfare Act. According to this, sexual acts with animals, which force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species, can be punished with a fine of up to 25,000 euros."

Say goodnight Gracie -


With the decision published today, the 3rd chamber of the First Senate of the Federal Constitutional Court did not accept a constitutional complaint against an administrative offense in the Animal Welfare Act. According to this, sexual acts with animals, which force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species, can be punished with a fine of up to 25,000 euros.
 
OK, you made me rub your face in it again.

Again from the Federal courts own press release.

"Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the offense of sexual acts with animals"

"With the decision published today, the 3rd chamber of the First Senate of the Federal Constitutional Court did not accept a constitutional complaint against an administrative offense in the Animal Welfare Act. According to this, sexual acts with animals, which force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species, can be punished with a fine of up to 25,000 euros."

Say goodnight Gracie -


With the decision published today, the 3rd chamber of the First Senate of the Federal Constitutional Court did not accept a constitutional complaint against an administrative offense in the Animal Welfare Act. According to this, sexual acts with animals, which force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species, can be punished with a fine of up to 25,000 euros.

1580180258761.png

You've been removed from commenting in this topic.

Maybe you can understand what "force" is and isn't.
 
Silky, you're agreeing with him.

According to this, sexual acts with animals, which force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species, can be punished
And sexual acts with animals which do not force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species are not regulated. That means that the animal's willing participation removes the act from regulation under that law, as in acts like the ZETA group were appealing. Therefor hearing the law is unnecessary.

You've been removed from commenting in this topic.
Guy, that's a less than perfect solution. She's a pain but letting her put her ignorance on full display does more good than brute forcing her.
 
Silky, you're agreeing with him.


And sexual acts with animals which do not force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species are not regulated. That means that the animal's willing participation removes the act from regulation under that law, as in acts like the ZETA group were appealing. Therefor hearing the law is unnecessary.


Guy, that's a less than perfect solution. She's a pain but letting her put her ignorance on full display does more good than brute forcing her.

That's a TLDR; of the entire German hearing I was pointing out.

As for the topic ban, even benevolent leaders have their limits.
 
Time for you to hang up your moderator badge, @ZTHorse.You just disqualified yourself. Your actions in this thread demonstrate that you're not fit for the job.

I'll be the first to admit that, for reasons of my own, I've never much liked her, even back in the beastforum days when she liked so much to play "mini-mod". Even so, the plain fact is that in this thread, no matter how much you hate the idea, @silkythighs has handed you your ass on a plate, complete with a nice sauce, some perfectly steamed veggies, and a nice big baked potato on the side, along with a carafe of wine to wash it all down with. So like a typical whining 8 year old who doesn't get his way, you're going to pitch a fit about it. Way to be, dude. Exactly what every mod should do! Your actions demonstrate that you don't have the temperament to be a moderator.

You want to believe what you want to believe - That's fine and dandy. You're entitled to your opinion. But as a moderator, you're NOT entitled to bully people for not agreeing with it, and particularly, you're not entitled to throw a hissy-fit and start tossing around bans because you can't accept the facts that prove your opinion is *JUST PLAIN WRONG*.

And honestly - how hard is it to understand that the court effectively said "You ain't got a leg to stand on - case dismissed" to the people bringing the case to get the law overturned? The court refused to even hear the argument, never mind considering overturning it or declaring sex with animals legal. Y'know what that says to me? Yep, that's right - in Germany, the law against sex with animals remains in effect - meaning that sex with animals is still illegal. So sorry that doesn't match with what you wish it actually means, but them's the facts, like 'em or not.

Now go ahead and ban me and prove me right.
 
Time for you to hang up your moderator badge, @ZTHorse.You just disqualified yourself. Your actions in this thread demonstrate that you're not fit for the job.

I'll be the first to admit that, for reasons of my own, I've never much liked her, even back in the beastforum days when she liked so much to play "mini-mod". Even so, the plain fact is that in this thread, no matter how much you hate the idea, @silkythighs has handed you your ass on a plate, complete with a nice sauce, some perfectly steamed veggies, and a nice big baked potato on the side, along with a carafe of wine to wash it all down with. So like a typical whining 8 year old who doesn't get his way, you're going to pitch a fit about it. Way to be, dude. Exactly what every mod should do! Your actions demonstrate that you don't have the temperament to be a moderator.

You want to believe what you want to believe - That's fine and dandy. You're entitled to your opinion. But as a moderator, you're NOT entitled to bully people for not agreeing with it, and particularly, you're not entitled to throw a hissy-fit and start tossing around bans because you can't accept the facts that prove your opinion is *JUST PLAIN WRONG*.

And honestly - how hard is it to understand that the court effectively said "You ain't got a leg to stand on - case dismissed" to the people bringing the case to get the law overturned? The court refused to even hear the argument, never mind considering overturning it or declaring sex with animals legal. Y'know what that says to me? Yep, that's right - in Germany, the law against sex with animals remains in effect - meaning that sex with animals is still illegal. So sorry that doesn't match with what you wish it actually means, but them's the facts, like 'em or not.

Now go ahead and ban me and prove me right.
Meh. She lost the debate and whined about it all over the forum.
 
What is important, right now, is that the German zooey community, themselves, have reached a consensus that the law only prosecutes acts that are clearly rape or exploitation, and because of that consensus, they are going to be able to keep their community publicly visible.

As I have said often, these laws regarding acts done in private that have no serious consequences upon either man or beast are virtually impossible to enforce.

I repeat, gay sex was a felony in the state of North Carolina right up until Lawrence v. Texas.

This was almost never actually enforced because cops had better things to do than harass queers! Ask people like @caikgoch who were around longer when those laws were enforced. While a lot of us were beaten bloody by toxic punks, cops actually tended to help us if we bothered to report crimes against us. It was very unusual for a cop that had taken oaths to protect and to serve the public to focus on punishing victimless crimes, although it did happen. We were in a lot more danger from common thugs than we ever were from cops.

The really dangerous thing about those laws was that gay people misinterpreted their real significance; this drove them fearfully into the closet, and they took to speaking and dressing in code, which made them come across like they were the fucking Bavarian Illiminati. That shit is creepy, and it makes people paranoid; people's grumbling over that incited thugs to pick us as favored targets. The only way we could get other LGBT to change their behavior was to get rid of those laws.

Basically, history says the most dangerous thing we can do is skulk around secretively like the fucking Bavarian Illuminati. That shit is creepy. It will get someone killed.

The German zooey community are most likely safe from serious harm unless there is a mass violent witch-hunt in Germany targeting zoos, and the best protection against such a witch-hunt is staying out of the closet and keeping up civil discourse with the public.

The court said clearly that the enforcement of the law is in the hands of prosecuting authority:

"the prosecution and punishment of which follows the opportunity principle and is therefore at the discretion of the prosecuting authority."

Opportunity principle:


The bottom-line is really that the investigation and prosecution of the law is not really compulsory because it is an administrative, rather than criminal, offense.

This means the prosecuting authorities would have to elect to do work they do not really have to do in order to prosecute a crime that it is hard to produce solid evidence for and which does not have a clear victim, and even if it did land in a German court, the reasons given for the rejection of the complaint would probably influence the outcome of such a case. Essentially, if harassing otherwise well-behaved zoos were that important to the Germans, they would have worded it differently.

Considering how rarely victimless crimes are prosecuted in absence of other bad behavior, we will probably never know for sure what a judge confronted with such a case would think.

The North Carolina law, on the other hand, came under criminal law, and Americans put a lot more people in prison than the Germans do. It was barely enforced, even though there were active gay rights organizations in North Carolina at the time.

I laugh a great big belly laugh if anyone thinks this law, under current conditions, will cause hardship for any otherwise absolutely law-abiding German zoo. It might be used against German zoos if their public relations deteriorated to a genuinely toxic extent, but that would take truly remarkable incompetence and malfeasance on the part of their leadership.

The German zooey community is well positioned to continue pursuing a public advocacy movement. In fact, the very role of "opportunity principle" in this particular type of law only makes public advocacy all the more necessary because making sure that prosecuting authorities are informed about the difference between zoo sex and actual sexual assault upon an animal is the most sure protection against a prosecuting authority being confused about the distinction. If anything, the law incentivizes public advocacy and the spreading of the idea of ZETA principles.
 
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Besides you @Talio claimed in another thread the case, "was challenged due to the ambiguity of the wording, it could be interpreted to prohibit all kinds of sex with an animal." But the 2013 law made that perfectly clear, "It is prohibited, to use an animal for their own sexual acts or to train or make available for the sexual acts of third parties and thereby force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species."

But regardless, it wasn't challenged due to ambiguous wording of the word force.

It was challenged because people—just like you—thought the law would prohibit all sexual acts with animals. But they were wrong. The constitutional court explained how the law is to be interpreted correctly. If people had been aware and absolutely sure of the correct interpretation of the law beforehand, they would not have challenged the law in the first place. So in that sense they challenged the law due to its ambiguous wording, but their complaint wasn't that the wording would be ambiguous. Their complaint was that the law as they [mis]understood it would violate their constitutional rights.


My understanding of the court case--correct me if I am wrong, @Tailo--is that what makes the court case important is not the fact that the case was thrown out but the argument that was used for throwing the case out, which apparently carries weight under German law.

Absolutely!


By effectively saying, "This has nothing to do with you weirdos, so please leave us alone," the court was making way for the government to prosecute genuinely destructive behavior by sort of putting a protective legal fence around people that have described a very specific situation, thereby rendering their argument for challenging the law null and void while also protecting them from prosecution, AS LONG as their actual behavior, in the privacy of their own homes, fit within the VERY SPECIFIC parameters described to the court.

It was just the most efficient way to save the court a lot of legal complications when the legislators that had authored the law had clearly had bigger fish to fry (psychopaths that would tie up and rape an animal, for instance) when they created the law. It wasn't worth compromising that just to create misery for a harmless fruitcake that clearly just believed that his animal was in love with him.

It was just a tidy way for the court to save a lot of time and money that would have otherwise been squandered on effectively tilting at windmills, but the court handily avoided seeming to approve of the behavior by basically saying a legal equivalent of, "shoo, fly, don't bother me." Essentially, it's easier to shoo a fly out the window with a broom, which takes seconds, than waste valuable time trying to swat it when you really don't have to and just might do more damage to the kitchen than you do to the fly.

Is that basically how the system works, @Tailo?

This is speculation and my guess is that you are quite close to the truth. :) I see some nuances differently, but I'll refrain from adding my own speculations here and concentrate on the facts, since people apparently have enough trouble with understanding them.


The besitiality law reads, "Sexual acts with animals, which force them to behave in a manner contrary to the species

So the act of sex itself, is forcing the animal to behave in a manner contrary to the species. The term "thereby force" doesn't mean being "physically forced" (Raped) into the sex. The "sexual act", is what forces the animal into behavior contrary to the species.

Your explanation what the terms mean differs greatly from the explanation given by the constitutional court. Fortunately for us in Germany, the constitutional court's explanation is authoritative and not yours.


Please, please, please with sugar on top. Show me a "credible news article or official statement, acknowledging that the German constitutional court overturned Germany's 2013 bestiaity ban in 2016 thus legalizing bestiality.

The German constitutional court did not overturn the 2013 law. The court explained that the law, as it stands, does not prohibit consensual bestiality. Your idea that bestiality would always imply the use of force is not shared by the constitutional court. The court explicitly said that the use of force is an additional criterion besides the sexual behavior and that this criterion limits the scope of the law. The court also explained that force, in this context, means physical force or something equivalent to physical force.


Yet again, you haven't addressed the Federal courts own press release.

"Unsuccessful constitutional complaint against the offense of sexual acts with animals"

So I'll ask again, what part of the above, don't you grasp?

I know you were asking @ZTHorse and not me, but the problem is that you fail to see that the constitutional court did two things at once. The court
  1. rejected a complaint
  2. and explained why it did so.
Your quotation confirms the first point. You ignore the second point though which is of crucial importance and contains a binding interpretation of the existing law, according to which consensual bestiality does not violate it.


And honestly - how hard is it to understand that the court effectively said "You ain't got a leg to stand on - case dismissed" to the people bringing the case to get the law overturned?

Not hard.
How hard is to understand that the court explained its decision and that its explanation is actually relevant?
 
From the explanation, translated automatically by Google but comprehensible enough, that was linked by @Tailo

"On the one hand, the term is also used in Section 3 Clause 1 No. 11 TierSchG and refers there to forcing the animal to move by direct current, which causes considerable pain, suffering or damage to the animal. On the other hand, the term “compulsory” used by the legislator in § 3 sentence 1 No. 13 TierSchG must be differentiated from the wording chosen in § 3 sentence 1 No. 1 and 1a TierSchG, according to which it is forbidden to “demand” services from an animal which it is not up to due to its physical condition. In any case, it is sufficient if the terms used are interpretable and can be specified through the application of the law."​

Again, the German zooey community is a very good position to keep advocating for their cause.

Unless the German judicial system is hopelessly irrational, I think that the WRITTEN AND PUBLISHED explanation of the law given by these judges ought to carry weight in the proceedings of any court.
 
I got to know about the thread because of the bickering, and I'm glad I came to check it out.

I find it funny that people go out of their way to defend an idea not because it is a good idea, not because they do know more than other people about specifics of the idea, but because they want to be right.

Special thanks to @Tailo and @SigmatoZeta for focusing on clarifying the situation. I'm neither a US citizen, nor a German, but I appreciate the thoughts on the matter.

Also, as far as I know, in Brazil we rarely enforce anti-zoo laws, and quite honestly, I believe it won't be a focus point. We do have a majority in our congress which is composed by farmers, and even though there are a lot of moralists amongst them, our contry is too big and there are too many sheep shaggers bothering nobody in the middle of nowhere to our congress to talk about it. SOOO, far as I know, as long as you don't let your dog fuck you in the middle of the street, nothing's happening here, at least for now.

[edit] On the point of talking about it or trying to 'get society on our side', though, I'm not as positive.
You can (and sometimes I am courageous enough to do so) argue to people that as long as one's not vegan, there's no moral ground to be against consensual (non-forced) bestiality, for one who kills in order to eat shan't judge he who raises with care, doesn't kill, and fucks a critter. But I'm pretty sure that in a world where social media is a thing, and Justice-Warrioring is in vogue, there'll be a lot more people judging us by their impaired sense of equality than non-zoo who would be brave enough to agree to this idea in a public space.
Tl;Dr: Bestiality ain't going to be an openly discussed topic, at least in most mediums. But it also will never be succesfully contained.
 
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@Brazoophile

The thing we ought to focus on for advocacy, in my opinion, is less on trying to change laws and more on trying to hedge against violence, bullying, discrimination, and misguided authoritarian police crackdowns.

As you can see, the laws in Brazil are really pretty toothless, most of the time.

Well, witch-hunts can still happen, but a carefully organized advocacy movement can hedge against them.

An incompetently planned advocacy movement can actually cause them. Going around in circles with someone that just wants to use you as a punching bag only teaches that person that it's fun to use you as a punching bag, for instance. I have found nothing more counter-productive and antithetical to anything I wanted to do than to waste hours and hours and hours of my time going around in circles with people that just wanted to play shitty taunting and baiting games.

The thing to do is study what movements elsewhere have been relatively successful at reducing anti-zoo aggression, regardless of the legal status of animal sex. Keeping people safe should take priority.
 
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@Brazoophile

The thing we ought to focus on for advocacy, in my opinion, is less on trying to change laws and more on trying to hedge against violence, bullying, discrimination, and misguided authoritarian police crackdowns.

As you can see, the laws in Brazil are really pretty toothless, most of the time.

Well, witch-hunts can still happen, but a carefully organized advocacy movement can hedge against them.

An incompetently planned advocacy movement can actually cause them.

The thing to do is study what movements elsewhere have been relatively successful at reducing anti-zoo aggression, regardless of tthe legal status of animal sex. Keeping people safe should take priority.
One hundred percent agreed, good sir!
We always have to take the culture into consideration, as well. Germans are a lot more liberal in regards to sex, while the US has a very unusual dichotomy within the realms of individual freedom and moral conservatism. In Brazil we also have a lot of religious background, but we also promote a lot of sexual openness. What works in one country won't work on another.
 
One hundred percent agreed, good sir!
We always have to take the culture into consideration, as well. Germans are a lot more liberal in regards to sex, while the US has a very unusual dichotomy within the realms of individual freedom and moral conservatism. In Brazil we also have a lot of religious background, but we also promote a lot of sexual openness. What works in one country won't work on another.
I would say that Brazil is just in a different stage of cultural evolution. As Brazil gets more of its own Silicon Valley like economies, it's going to follow a similar cultural rhythm in those economies. From one place to another, people do the things they do for similar reasons. I am betting you actually already have such places. Well, you can expect a lot of the same norms.
 
@Pillar, I have always preferred written material, myself. Even when I was a teenager, I found it difficult to stay interested in porn, but good erotica that related someone's thoughts and feelings had a much higher potency for me.

I think it might be connected with my passionate nature.
 
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