Hi I'm zoosceptic and I got couple of questions

Q

Question_Guy2

Tourist
First of all I'm not toxic in any way. It may sound like I'd like to kill everyone here or something, but I'm here to have talk not to attack.
I've red a bit about your community and I understand the relation between the animal and the person. The relation may look natural at the first look, but I discovered myself that, if we decide that having sex with animals is valid on the base of these arguments:
-Animal has own sexuality
-Animal gives consent by non-verbal signs
-Animal is able to feel satisfaction out of sexual intercourse
Then we might say same about kids that are as little as 10. I mean that not always the thing that animal wants is good for it. If you ever happen to give some animal some food treat you know what I mean. Therefore sexual interactions with animals may create issues similar to those that are done by pedophilia or sexaddiction. Animal may develop broken sexuality or have other mental or physical disorders.
How do protect your animal from negative that impact of sex?
second question is about the work of the sex in case of humans. We as the man kind are able to communicate and tell the authorities when we are abused. Animals are not gifted with talent of communication and unless it is in serious problem it wont show it. Lifting the zoosexual ban gives wide open doors for abusers to do terrible things with their pets. I don't mean that you in particular are sadist or anything. I mean even tho you might be the perfect example of animal lover that favors the animal in sexual aspects to not harm it, there are always the people that are not like that and you have to always remember it no matter what.(I even myself got naive this way while still being young and got raped thinking that everyone is morally perfect as I)
How do you prevent abuse from happening?
How do you protect animals from abusers when they won't tell you that something bad is happening or they rarely have contact with people other than owner, such as stable animals?
that all I have to ask to this point I'll try to read all the responds and answser them if I can and there is need to.
Remember it's about dialogue.
I apologise if I made anyone upset with that post. I could put it a bit more softly.
 
Question_Guy2 said:
How do you prevent abuse from happening?
How do you protect animals from abusers when they won't tell you that something bad is happening or they rarely have contact with people other than owner, such as stable animals?
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How do you prevent non-sexual abuse from happening? Same way. In fact, Zoos are more likely to spot abuse do to their greater knowledge of animal communication/behavior but afraid to report it for fear of being caught up in the investigation.

Question_Guy2 said:
How do protect your animal from negative that impact of sex?
Click to expand...
First, most of those negative impacts don't exist. There is no chance at all of anyone getting pregnant. And the only social pressures that animals feel re sex is wanting more.

There is a possible negative effect that I have seen personally, animals will sometimes come to prefer humans over their own species. But is that worse than curbing their reproduction by amputating body parts?
 
Standing" in loco parentis" for critters is simpler, but essentially the same Idea as parenting. If they have no right to protest being owned, it is incumbent upon me....ME, not you, not society...to provide for that creature's welfare. They have neither standing nor a place to redress wrongs to their well-being. As part of my family, they are mine to care for. If I do not do that, they will die, or if they're "lucky" ( that term is debatable in this context ), someone will take them from me. All of this applies whether I am Zoo or not, whether the critters are treated as sex partners or not. Ergo, it should not take a rocket boy to see that we're no different than anyone else on the planet that owns even a Goldfish. That we may on occasion take our relationships with animals a bit further doesn't change us into the big bad Wolf, and cannot, in fact, do that.

IF there are abusives under the descriptor "Zoo", and there are, THOSE are no different than the rest of the world pop either, in terms of actions and results. Jeffrey Daumer ate people. Ted Bundy was a necrophiliac who wanted to kill his own. There are hundreds of thousands of people who do truly horrid things to other people. Most of them, the type of people OR the horrid things, won't be found here. We generally are not even as tolerant as the pop at large, because the "community" is smaller. Everything is more noticeable here. More, there is a certain empathy that develops among people who love their critters in our sense. You cant do very much with a critter that isnt willing to come to you. This, by the way, is the basis for the domestication of Animals so many thousands of years ago. The animals that walk with us are only a few species out of the many in the Kingdom of Fauna. Study the reasons for that; there is much insight there, both into the animals and into human nature. Then learn to stop looking at this exploration as a journey into the dark of the human mind. That you do not know us better in your society is on you, not on us.
 
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caikgoch said:
Nope, that's pure 'tard level bull. My long term partner just turned 12 and weighs about 1200 lbs. He has adult offspring and is fully capable of living in his own society without my help. He just likes having me around to to serve him.
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Unquestionably, children are sexual beings. Equally unquestionably, they are obviously children. They are equipped with features that let adults identify them as children, and thus in need of more care than an adult Australobubba. Stature, facial development, skills or lack of them all send a message to the adults around a youngun. Unfortunately its also true that a very few adults on the planet interpret that message as " yummy-tender ". That's just as true of the animal world: squirrels, as well as serpents eat baby birds. Thing is, in the case of certain young animals, kids, puppies, foals, calves of a hundred types, domestic or not, there are far more adult humans there to help them than hurt them.
 
Question_Guy2 said:
Then we might say same about kids that are as little as 10.
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A fully grown adult animal is not even remotely comparable to a child. 1 has a sex drive, the other usually does not. 1 Can survive on its own, the other can not. 1 has the capability to maul and maim people without weapons. The other does not. 1 has fully developed sexual organs, sex characteristics, and mental capabilities, the other does not.

Want to take a guess at which can not?


Question_Guy2 said:
How do protect your animal from negative that impact of sex?
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Same way you protect them from any negative impact: Don’t hurt them. It’s not that hard. If you can’t tell when you’re causing another being harm or potential harm, then that’s on you. If you hurt them on accident, apologize and make up for it. Show them it’s not their fault.

@Octavian and @caikgoch covered the rest pretty nicely.
 
At the end of the day, animal abuse happens with or without laws against bestiality. Keeping those laws and the stigma with them obviously doesn’t stop very many people from acting out on their desires. It’s unrealistic to expect that sexual abuse will never happen. It will, and that’s the sad part about it. People will always find a way to abuse the power they’ve been given. Laws will never stop human cruelty.

The best we can do is show that there are people who can have loving, caring relationships with their animals, and set a clear line between us and them.

Are there trans predators? Are there gay murderers? Are there black pedos? Are there female rapists? Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Doesn’t mean the rest of that group should be villanized, just means they have some fucked up apples, and they’re obviously outcast/despised. Same concept here. As you can see, most here don’t take kindly to zoosadists. Just because there are some rotten apples in the bunch, doesn’t mean the whole orchard is tainted.
 
caikgoch said:
How do you prevent non-sexual abuse from happening? Same way. In fact, Zoos are more likely to spot abuse do to their greater knowledge of animal communication/behavior but afraid to report it for fear of being caught up in the investigation.


First, most of those negative impacts don't exist. There is no chance at all of anyone getting pregnant. And the only social pressures that animals feel re sex is wanting more.

There is a possible negative effect that I have seen personally, animals will sometimes come to prefer humans over their own species. But is that worse than curbing their reproduction by amputating body parts?
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I see your point cutting out animal genitalia to have perfect asexual companion is bad.
About those negative impact of sex. I realize you might be right I'll have to read more about it.(I would be glad if you happen to find some good resources)
 
caikgoch said:
Nope, that's pure 'tard level bull. My long term partner just turned 12 and weighs about 1200 lbs. He has adult offspring and is fully capable of living in his own society without my help. He just likes having me around to to serve him.
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knottedftm said:
a 10 year old human child has a lot of drastic differences than a SEXUALLY MATURE animal.
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Jewelry Fish said:
A fully grown adult animal is not even remotely comparable to a child. 1 has a sex drive, the other usually does not. 1 Can survive on its own, the other can not. 1 has the capability to maul and maim people without weapons. The other does not. 1 has fully developed sexual organs, sex characteristics, and mental capabilities, the other does not.
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arcticwolf69 said:
ADULT animals are not 10yr old kids, they are adult with fully developed mental capabilities, kids are NOT
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I understand, but I what about I still feel odd about this. The innocence of the pet is something I'd never try to interfere with, but in the end animals are not so innocent. They have own sexual drive and they are able to show it. For instance dog humping on your leg.
 
nekdoneco123 said:
got a few counter-questions. how do you personally as a "normal" person perceive "us"? what made you add children into the mix? you do see what the difference between an adult animal and a child is?
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sorry if I made you upset ;_;
I wanted to talk about the innocence of the animal and the realation based on independence. That's why I added the children. Sorry again I've never talked about this with anyone and I wrote it kinda nasty. I didn't mean to.
The difference between animal, adult and a child in my opinion is(we consider only fully healthy specimens):
Adult:
-mature
-able to comunicate
-"physicly durable"(you know what I mean)
-has fully developed sexuality
-has human mind
-has few races that are not so different
child:
-innocent
-not mature
-able to communicate(not as good as adult)
-can be "physicly durable", but it is up to every kid how fast it develops body and mind
-still develops into more powerful being
-still develops sexuality
-has developing human mind
-has few races that are not so different
animal:
-mature(I don't think that having sex with cubs is the thing here)
-innocent(not as a child)
-Is able to communicate, but not verbally
-"physical durability" is in doubt. Adult horse is able to easly take human, while smaller animal is going to be impaled.(sex is not only about penetration)
-has sexuality or develops it
-has animal mind(simmilar to younger human) can understand own mistakes and feel
-has lot's of species that can be not same at all
 
saddlebum66 said:
Standing" in loco parentis" for critters is simpler, but essentially the same Idea as parenting. If they have no right to protest being owned, it is incumbent upon me....ME, not you, not society...to provide for that creature's welfare. They have neither standing nor a place to redress wrongs to their well-being. As part of my family, they are mine to care for. If I do not do that, they will die, or if they're "lucky" ( that term is debatable in this context ), someone will take them from me. All of this applies whether I am Zoo or not, whether the critters are treated as sex partners or not. Ergo, it should not take a rocket boy to see that we're no different than anyone else on the planet that owns even a Goldfish. That we may on occasion take our relationships with animals a bit further doesn't change us into the big bad Wolf, and cannot, in fact, do that.

IF there are abusives under the descriptor "Zoo", and there are, THOSE are no different than the rest of the world pop either, in terms of actions and results. Jeffrey Daumer ate people. Ted Bundy was a necrophiliac who wanted to kill his own. There are hundreds of thousands of people who do truly horrid things to other people. Most of them, the type of people OR the horrid things, won't be found here. We generally are not even as tolerant as the pop at large, because the "community" is smaller. Everything is more noticeable here. More, there is a certain empathy that develops among people who love their critters in our sense. You cant do very much with a critter that isnt willing to come to you. This, by the way, is the basis for the domestication of Animals so many thousands of years ago. The animals that walk with us are only a few species out of the many in the Kingdom of Fauna. Study the reasons for that; there is much insight there, both into the animals and into human nature. Then learn to stop looking at this exploration as a journey into the dark of the human mind. That you do not know us better in your society is on you, not on us.
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You got my thing perfect. I'm concerned about the abusers not the "normal zoo people". Zoo person loves the animal and always defend it. When I found myself having sexual interests I decided to not have any sexual relations with animals not out of law, religion, but because of animal. I would never want to harm any living being. Not everyone is perfect and not everyone is going to do so. The ban just scares off the pervs while true lovers are going to break it and live with it, but then it sound sick. Situation is similar to gay bans in the east.
​
I think myself that sex with animal is morally valid if there is consent on both sides. If we do it wisely nobody is hurt(or only human) and both sides are satisfied. No harm done. Everyone is happy. The problem is the disgust of the people outside not understanding.​
​
That's the product of my logical thinking. I feel bad with it. I mean I logicly came into conclusion that some of the basic rules of the society is wrong. I'm still scared I didn't consider some aspect or anything and I'm remaining out of the community because of that.
 
You have a mind....use it. No one can or should make it up for you. There are, if course, people who would. If this topic interests you, READ. Youll have to learn to be selective, because there is much hooey out there. Even here there are people who purport to be writing "How-to" manuals that will either rehash, or plagiarize outright, things that were written before they were born. Still, there are resources. Knowledge of the facts is never a bad thing. Take advantage of that. Ask questions. As long as you treat your critters decently, this is OJT.
 
Question_Guy2 said:
I know, but would the authorities define you done it "right". I mean not harming the animal.
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No veterinarian could honestly say that what my girl and I do has ever caused physical harm, even if they examined her immediately afterwards. Emotional harm? One could argue. I will say though that everybody who has ever met my dogs has commented on how happy they seem.
 
Octavian said:
No veterinarian could honestly say that what my girl and I do has ever caused physical harm, even if they examined her immediately afterwards. Emotional harm? One could argue. I will say though that everybody who has ever met my dogs has commented on how happy they seem.
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ok then that makes sense
much sense
 
saddlebum66 said:
You have a mind....use it. No one can or should make it up for you. There are, if course, people who would. If this topic interests you, READ. Youll have to learn to be selective, because there is much hooey out there. Even here there are people who purport to be writing "How-to" manuals that will either rehash, or plagiarize outright, things that were written before they were born. Still, there are resources. Knowledge of the facts is never a bad thing. Take advantage of that. Ask questions. As long as you treat your critters decently, this is OJT.
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I'll read no worries. I became kinda scared of myself because of zoophilia. For last few years I stopped to have any relations with animals. I refused to get dog when I got chanse to get one from shelter. I'm always scared harm some animal or to be spoted as zoophile. It's a bit destructive.
 
You do the best you can to defend those that cannot. We’re not perfect. We’re not natural. (In our defense, the act of killing and eating one’s victim is perfectly within the bounds of nature, just saying) So yeah, we’re not trying to be 100% natural here, along with 99% of “normal” people in modern society. I do truly believe with all my heart that if someone were to harm someone or something innocent and helpless in front of us, 99% of this community would tear them to shreds. I know from the outside you may see us differently. We may seem taboo. We are, but we aren’t heartless. To us, seeing someone mistreat a puppy is as bad as mistreating a child. While on the other hand, there are people that would condemn a sexual predator in a second, but have no problem chaining a dog up in the winter or throwing a runt pup in the river because it’s inconvenient and weak. I’ve seen it first hand, cock/dog fighting and just general neglect. Zoos value the lives of animals above the lives of most humans. We can have full conversations without uttering a single word. We can spot other zoos just by observing how close they are with their animals. As I said, we’re not perfect, but if what one does brings harm to an animal, they aren’t part of our community.

Another side note, it seems to me that animals tend to trust us more than most. Stray animals, mean animals, and even wild animals. I’ve seen animals run away from people, but they’ll let me get close enough to pet. I’ve seen dogs that were neglected, abused, and known for biting roll over in my lap ready to play. I’ve sat ten feet away from 3 deer while they were grazing for over an hour. They glanced at me and kept about their business. They know I’m not a threat. I hope one day you will.
 
Question_Guy2 said:
sorry if I made you upset ;_;
I wanted to talk about the innocence of the animal and the realation based on independence. That's why I added the children. Sorry again I've never talked about this with anyone and I wrote it kinda nasty. I didn't mean to.
The difference between animal, adult and a child in my opinion is(we consider only fully healthy specimens):
Adult:
-mature
-able to comunicate
-"physicly durable"(you know what I mean)
-has fully developed sexuality
-has human mind
-has few races that are not so different
child:
-innocent
-not mature
-able to communicate(not as good as adult)
-can be "physicly durable", but it is up to every kid how fast it develops body and mind
-still develops into more powerful being
-still develops sexuality
-has developing human mind
-has few races that are not so different
animal:
-mature(I don't think that having sex with cubs is the thing here)
-innocent(not as a child)
-Is able to communicate, but not verbally
-"physical durability" is in doubt. Adult horse is able to easly take human, while smaller animal is going to be impaled.(sex is not only about penetration)
-has sexuality or develops it
-has animal mind(simmilar to younger human) can understand own mistakes and feel
-has lot's of species that can be not same at all
Click to expand...

You seem to be under the impression that animals are innocent. I guess this really just depends on your morals and definition of “innocent”, but when I see hyenas in the wild stealing lion cubs from their prides and ripping them into shreds, I think of anything but innocent. When I see cats fighting until one can’t fight anymore in my neighborhood, I think of anything but innocent. When my dog goes full sicko mode when another dog starts barking at me, I don’t think of this helpless, innocent creature. When I read stories of dogs and cats eating their owners’ dead bodies, innocence isn’t a term that comes to mind.

Animals live by the laws of Mother Nature. They do what it takes to survive. They have no sense of morality, and very little, if any, guilt. Yes, they can be cute and playful and sweet similar to children, but a child is not going to try and maul a squirrel sitting on a fence. They have a pretty good grasp of the world, and that grasp is “Survival of the fittest”. Children are usually deemed innocent because they don’t have this grasp of the world and how it works.

But I guess we have our own definition of “innocent”. Maybe I’ve just watched too many animal documentaries over the years, but animals can be vicious and cruel if need be. Even domesticated ones.


Also, you mentioned sex with small animals. That is not condoned here. Any sex that cannot be had safety is not condoned or tolerated. That’s why you don’t see very many house cats, rodents, birds, reptiles, or anything else of the sort in the porn section.
 
So you are afraid that your desire is not pure?
Thats perfectly sound after what life in society does to people, but worry not, there is a solution: get yourself a big dog to live with, a big, dominant and agressive dog, if he or her ever feels unconfortable he or her will tear your face off.

And then youll see that if you love that dog they will love you, and if you hurt them they will hurt you back, clearing any doubts you might have, in any case if you do end up being what you fear most, they wilm find your body half eaten by the dog that killed you and we will have one less problem on the world.

But my first inpression of ypu tells me that wouldnt be the case.

Anyways, kudos for being civil
 
Edger_23 said:
So you are afraid that your desire is not pure?
Thats perfectly sound after what life in society does to people, but worry not, there is a solution: get yourself a big dog to live with, a big, dominant and agressive dog, if he or her ever feels unconfortable he or her will tear your face off.

And then youll see that if you love that dog they will love you, and if you hurt them they will hurt you back, clearing any doubts you might have, in any case if you do end up being what you fear most, they wilm find your body half eaten by the dog that killed you and we will have one less problem on the world.

But my first inpression of ypu tells me that wouldnt be the case.

Anyways, kudos for being civil
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I'll better stick to jerking of TBH. If I'll hapen to have dog I wont engage any sexual relation with it.
 
Edger_23 said:
Fine by me.
By the way just... please refrain from calling them it on this forum
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Give the pronoun-triggeried-snowflake crap a break, wouldja? "It" is a perfectly acceptable use when speaking of a generic/unspecified, perhaps unknown, perhaps even purely hypothetical, critter, especially when it isn't specified (or possibly even known) what its sex is.

Y'know, as in "If I get a dog, will it do thing X?" (A hypothetical dog that one is contemplating getting, but doesn't even know for sure exists, never mind what its sex might be) "If the horse I'm going to ride is brown and I fall off, will it fade into the desert like camouflage and get lost?" (likewise, an unknown horse that might be male or female - or might not even exist) "That dog had something wrong with it - it could barely walk." (Dunno what the sex is - only that it was a dog, and it apparently had difficulty getting around)
 
I'd just like to say I appreciate you coming at this in a polite way.
Asking genuine questions should be encouraged so as long as that's what you're doing it shouldn't offend anyone :gsd_happysmile:

Also sorry for the incoming wall of text

On first point.
As many have said before, I see no similarity between a adult animal and a human child, they just aren't the same mentally or physically. I think the wide held belief that they have the mind of a child is because people often say "this breed of dog has the intelligence of a human 5 year old" but many people don't truly understand what that is meant to mean. When someone says that, they aren't saying they have the mental maturity of a human child, but that they have the problem solving ability of a human child, such as the ability to do simple math or match shapes to holes in a box. This is also specific to problem solving from a human point of view, a dog for example will be able to find food and avoid dangers on their own, but 99% of human children would not have the same ability, but they are likely able to do math to a higher standard.
On the physical side the difference is far more obvious, a adult animal is fall grown and at the age of sexual maturity for there species. For humans this is about 18 years old but for a dog this is more around 2 years old as their live are, sadly, far shorter then ours.
As a side note to that I (and all the zoos I've actively talked to) don't have an attraction to young animals, to me a young animal is the same as a human child, someone to be cared for with love and kindness, and never a object of desire.


Point two.
I'm sorry to say evil people that want to hurt animals will do it whether there is a law or not, the only thing anti zoo laws do is hurt good people who are attracted to non-humans. You say that "lifting the zoosexual ban gives wide open doors for abusers to do terrible things" but this is not true, it is already against the law to hurt people (human or animal) and sadly there are abusers now that do terrible things, they are rightfully hated, and when found the are imprisoned, but it's not the Zoo ban that is catching them, it's just normal animal rights that they are violating by doing harm. The only ones the ban on Zoosexuality is hurting is the actual Zoos that want to have a relationship without any abuse to either party, not the sickos that hurt others for fun.
If having sex with a dog or a horse is legal, that will not mean hurting them suddenly is. In the same way that two humans having sex is legal but forcing someone to have sex or beating them is not legal, it would be exactly the same for human to non-human sexual relationships.
The response to this is often "but a dog can't report an abuser" that is true, but the ban on Zoos is not suddenly making them able to. Evil people who abuse animals will do it either way, and it's that that need to be stopped, not people who love animals more then the average.

People who hurt other should, and will always be reported and punished when they are found, normal animal rights laws see to that (in the case of animals considered pets only but that is another topic) so a law where it's only purpose is to stop sexual relationship between humans and animals out right has nothing to do with protecting animals at all, as they are already protected by other laws anyway.
So the only thing the anti Zoo laws are for is to stop something the law makers thought was icky.


To the bit about preventing harm to your partner.

Preventing accidental harm is all about knowledge and common sense.
  1. Learn the body language of your partner so you know when they are saying "yes", "no", "I enjoy what you're doing" or "I'm not comfortable with what you're doing".
  2. Never do anything sexual with a partner of non-compatible size or physiology.
  3. Never restrain a partner in any way, they most always be able to change their mind and stop if they want to.
  4. Don't train a animal for sex as this remove real consent from the table and makes it about rewards for something they might not actually enjoy but will deal with for treats, this is obviously not ok when it comes to sex.
Those are just some things I can think of right now but there is certainly more.

Again sorry about the wall of text, I hope it didn't hurt to read to much and if you did read it all then thanks for listening, I know I got kind of rambley in parts so I'm sorry about that too:gsd_happysmile:
 
Jewelry Fish said:
You seem to be under the impression that animals are innocent. I guess this really just depends on your morals and definition of “innocent”, but when I see hyenas in the wild stealing lion cubs from their prides and ripping them into shreds, I think of anything but innocent. When I see cats fighting until one can’t fight anymore in my neighborhood, I think of anything but innocent. When my dog goes full sicko mode when another dog starts barking at me, I don’t think of this helpless, innocent creature. When I read stories of dogs and cats eating their owners’ dead bodies, innocence isn’t a term that comes to mind.

Animals live by the laws of Mother Nature. They do what it takes to survive. They have no sense of morality, and very little, if any, guilt. Yes, they can be cute and playful and sweet similar to children, but a child is not going to try and maul a squirrel sitting on a fence. They have a pretty good grasp of the world, and that grasp is “Survival of the fittest”. Children are usually deemed innocent because they don’t have this grasp of the world and how it works.
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You done good job with that reply.
I think of animals as innocent cause of todays lack of connection to nature. I mean in nature all sort of bad things happen, like fight for food or rapes in species. Today's dogs are risen as sweet bois :3 and they are meant to be emotional. To be pet hugged and not to fight. Today's animals has even some kind morality, because they are able to feel guilty when they done something bad, like breaking furniture or shoes.
 
What-there-once-was said:
I'd just like to say I appreciate you coming at this in a polite way.
Asking genuine questions should be encouraged so as long as that's what you're doing it shouldn't offend anyone :gsd_happysmile:

Also sorry for the incoming wall of text
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I still feel bad with few thing I wrote cause now they seem a bit offensive. ;_;
Wall of text is not bad at all. I came here for it.

You are commenting my paragraph about child and animal.
I wrote what I mean by it in reply above. It's more about innocence. My biggest concern is the morality that is developed by dogs. They do feel ashamed or guilty. That's great, but also frightening. I wouldn't like to harm any animal. Especialy if it has developed higher level feeling.(I mean quilt, love, shame, etc.)
 
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