Ethics

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pab665

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I was talking with someone who told me what they were doing, I immediately felt there was a problem with it but I thought I would run the situation by others to determine if it is just me who thinks this is wrong or not.

So, there is a woman who goes to a farm owned by her family members and has sex with male boars on the farm. She gets vaginally penetrated by them, the whole nine yards. It is a working farm, and the boars are there to breed with the sows. When the boars can no longer breed they are often euthanized, according to the woman I talked to who is having sex with them. The woman just let's them be euthanized since it's a working farm without any discernible emotions or attempts to intervene on their behalf.

I had a problem with this because despite that it is a working farm, if you have sex with a creature even an animal it's not right to do nothing and just allow them to die. You are extending a part of humanity to an animal when you do that which changes things in my opinion and in that situation it would be imperative to advocate to family members who own the farm to preserve the pigs. Is it just me who has a problem with the arrangement this woman is involved in?
 
Things can be complicated.
Let me expand on that from my own past so I don't have to speculate on what a 3rd party may or may not have done or feel...

When I was younger, I spent my teen years on a hog farm; the ultimate destination for nearly all of the hogs was sausage, the few lucky ones got kept as breeding stock. I knew the fate of most of them, but I had no control over it. If I spoke up, nothing would have changed for the hogs, but things would have negatively changed for me.
There were difficulties in dealing with it and I learned the hard way to not get involved with anyone destined for slaughter, but so long as there's no abuse, what's the problem with enjoying one another's company in the interim? I would have had an ethical dilemma if it were in my control to decide their fate, but I had zero control. Would their lives be improved without that interaction?

If she has control over their fate, I think that would lead to dilemma, at least it would for me. I would find it difficult to talk about it with someone who had control and chose personal economic benefit over the life of a lover, but not everyone becomes emotionally invested and sees their sexual partners as lovers. I've worked with hogs and when I see them, I see an active mind. When I was dealing with that environment I learned to compartmentalize things, you learn to not think of them as individuals or things become difficult, perhaps that's what she's doing.

I feel a lot of this is tied to the problems of seeing other animals as individuals; it's a complex issue I'm not wanting to enage in here. I try to live my life according to my principles, I try to not be a hypocrite to those principles and want to be a positive example of an alternative view, but I feel a person will be more effective at sharing their view when they aren't alienating others. It's difficult sometimes and the best advice I can give is to follow your conscience and leave others to theirs.
 
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Things can be complicated.
Let me expand on that from my own past so I don't have to speculate on what a 3rd party may or may not have done or feel...

When I was younger, I spent my teen years on a hog farm; the ultimate destination for nearly all of the hogs was sausage, the few lucky ones got kept as breeding stock. I knew the fate of most of them, but I had no control over it. If I spoke up, nothing would have changed for the hogs, but things would have negatively changed for me.
There were difficulties in dealing with it and I learned the hard way to not get involved with anyone destined for slaughter, but so long as there's no abuse, what's the problem with enjoying one another's company in the interim? I would have had an ethical dilemma if it were in my control to decide their fate, but I had zero control. Would their lives be improved without that interaction?

If she has control over their fate, I think that would lead to dilemma, at least it would for me. I would find it difficult to talk about it with someone who had control and chose personal economic benefit over the life of a lover, but not everyone becomes emotionally invested and sees their sexual partners as lovers. I've worked with hogs and when I see them, I see an active mind. When I was dealing with that environment I learned to compartmentalize things, you learn to not think of them as individuals or things become difficult, perhaps that's what she's doing.

I feel a lot of this is tied to the problems of seeing other animals as individuals; it's a complex issue I'm not wanting to enage in here. I try to live my life according to my principles, I try to not be a hypocrite to those principles and want to be a positive example of an alternative view, but I feel a person will be more effective at sharing their view when they aren't alienating others. It's difficult sometimes and the best advice I can give is to follow your conscience and leave others to theirs.
 
I acknowledge it's a complex issue with a potential for someone passing judgement for themselves to be a hypocrite but the woman's grandparents owned and ran the farm so I think to at least a partial extent the woman could have leverage over the outcomes of the boars.
 
I acknowledge it's a complex issue with a potential for someone passing judgement for themselves to be a hypocrite but the woman's grandparents owned and ran the farm so I think to at least a partial extent the woman could have leverage over the outcomes of the boars.

I understand your feelings, but does she have that power over their lives?

I don't know the details, but put yourself in her position. Your grandparents run a farm, they are likely profit motivated; I know the one I was on certainly was. They likely do not view the hogs as much more than walking cash, as was my experience with the farm I was on. How would you argue to your grandparents that they should spend their limited money in a manner you want based on what you feel is right? How do you articulate this to them? What's your limit on how much of your family you would be willing to walk away from to argue for this? Whould you be willing to have your entire family turn their backs on you? Do you not think her ability to change their minds is not similar to your ability to change hers?

I think it's a grey area, but let me pose a hypothetical. A dog has a congenital condition, it will die at the age of 8 no matter what you do. Is it unethical to share experiences with the dog, assuming no harm to either of you, knowing full well the dog will die at 8? How is it different, especially if she doesn't have control over their fate, much like the dog with the congenital defect?

I think you will have better luck engaging her about the boars as individuals. Use your reason to stir up hers and help her see it as you do, but be open to seeing her perspective as well. If you try to make her adopt your view you will likely cause problems in the relationship between the two of you, perhaps that doesn't matter, perhaps it does, only you know. I don't see it as an easy cut and dry proposition. Are the hogs' lives improved if she ceases her actions?

Edit: I'm not trying to be argumentative, I am trying to explore the ethics and what each of us might think, feel, or do in the proposed situation, but perhaps more importantly, to think about *why* we think, feel, or do as we do.
 
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I own a working farm, I care about my animals, I have had sex with some of them, at times some of those animals have met their end by decisions I have directly made, but these are not easy decision for me to make. And I am far from driven only by money, given the choice I will always sell an animal in live sales to go and live more of their life on another farm rather than going to be directly be turned into meat. This has meant at times I have got less money in my pocket from the sale, but I feel far better about the transaction. If an animal is to die for my own consumption it is done quickly and humanely so they never get stressed or suffer.

Would the animal under my care have lived a better life while on my farm if I never had sex with them? No because I don't force animals into sex so whether or not I had been intimate with them does not effect how well I care for them. A happy life for the animal while here is always important to me.

I don't have pigs, but let me try and look at things from the farmers view point: So lets say that the breeding boars you were talking about were kept alive till they died natural deaths does the farm have adequate facillities to keep them separate once they've been retired, after being able to have sex for years are they going to be happy suddenly being told, no you can't do that any more. This might lead to fighting or aggression if the retired boar still thinks they are dominanent over their replacement. They could always be castrated to fix a lot of these issues, but where does the money come from to get a vet out to do this, does the farmer do the operation themselves they may not know how to do it properly to avoid pain to the animal. These boars still need to be fed which is going to use up pasture or cost money to keep them fed if food has to be brought in for them. yet they are no longer working on the other side of the equation to make any money for their upkeep. So at this point they are pets. This might be perfectly fine, but pigs live a good number of years so at what point do you end up with a yard full of pets that need more and more medical treatment to keep them happy and healthy as they age. What if the boars get out one night and breed every sow they can get a trotter over. Were they retired in the first place because their genes were becoming to dominant in the herd, could birth defects occur in the piglets if the sows they bred when they got out that night are line bred (in breeding with daughters and grand daughters) So you could sell the boars to another farmer, will anyone want to buy an older boar past his breeding prime? Have you spend generation refining for qualities that give you an advantage in the market place over the farmer next door, and if they got hold of the boar could they not steal all the effort you put into getting an animal that gave you an edge over the competition. If you sell them as a pet, is their temperament suitable for a hobby farm or to be around kids. Would they decide one day that little janie with that bucket of slops might be good to jump on and try and have sex with, they are not light animals a human as a partner isn't a new idea if they have done it before back in their breeding days.

If you are emotionally attached to an animal it can certainly sway the equation to going down the pet path without a question, but as I've tried to point out there is a lot more to it than first might appear. Sometimes a bullet is just the best out come in the situation.

I had a bull, I had had sex with him numerous times, I had a bond with him, but wasn't in love with him as such, he was hand raised and had no fear of humans he knew a human (me) could give him sexual pleasure, he weighed 800kg 10x my weight, which proved to be an issue when his foreplay got out of hand one night and he broke my leg. I needed to keep him seperate from some new calves and their mothers, but he wanted to breed the cows so he started smashing gates in attempts to get to the cows. Basically something had to give, he was well built enough for my needs, but he wasn't a prized breeding specimen so had no real value to other farmers as a bull for breeding purposes, so that meant the only place he would be going was to be turned into hand burgers. But how could I send him off for others to eat, who never knew his other side that friendly calf had been who followed you around or that strong lover who could milk ever last drop of cum out of me as I was draped over his back hugging his back while balls deep in his tail hole. So I made the phone call to a butcher who would come out to the farm and shot him out in the small paddock so he never saw it coming one minute he was eating fresh juicy grass he loved and the next it was all over. He kept me fed for well over 18 months and I thanked him every day for his gift of nourishment he had given me and vowed to remember him. Taking his life being a healthy young animal was very hard, but at the end of the day he had become a danger and it had to be done. So I did it the best way I could think to resolve the situation.

It's all far more black and white when your not the one making the call, life and death is not always easy when you hold it in your hands. How emotionally involved you are with an animal can hold a lot of weight and I would have moved heaven and earth to get one more day of life for my beloved GSD. But sadly farm animals bring a whole host of complicating factors with them it's far to often not a simple thing even for a zoo who cares about them.
 
I own a working farm, I care about my animals, I have had sex with some of them, at times some of those animals have met their end by decisions I have directly made, but these are not easy decision for me to make. And I am far from driven only by money, given the choice I will always sell an animal in live sales to go and live more of their life on another farm rather than going to be directly be turned into meat. This has meant at times I have got less money in my pocket from the sale, but I feel far better about the transaction. If an animal is to die for my own consumption it is done quickly and humanely so they never get stressed or suffer.

Would the animal under my care have lived a better life while on my farm if I never had sex with them? No because I don't force animals into sex so whether or not I had been intimate with them does not effect how well I care for them. A happy life for the animal while here is always important to me.

I don't have pigs, but let me try and look at things from the farmers view point: So lets say that the breeding boars you were talking about were kept alive till they died natural deaths does the farm have adequate facillities to keep them separate once they've been retired, after being able to have sex for years are they going to be happy suddenly being told, no you can't do that any more. This might lead to fighting or aggression if the retired boar still thinks they are dominanent over their replacement. They could always be castrated to fix a lot of these issues, but where does the money come from to get a vet out to do this, does the farmer do the operation themselves they may not know how to do it properly to avoid pain to the animal. These boars still need to be fed which is going to use up pasture or cost money to keep them fed if food has to be brought in for them. yet they are no longer working on the other side of the equation to make any money for their upkeep. So at this point they are pets. This might be perfectly fine, but pigs live a good number of years so at what point do you end up with a yard full of pets that need more and more medical treatment to keep them happy and healthy as they age. What if the boars get out one night and breed every sow they can get a trotter over. Were they retired in the first place because their genes were becoming to dominant in the herd, could birth defects occur in the piglets if the sows they bred when they got out that night are line bred (in breeding with daughters and grand daughters) So you could sell the boars to another farmer, will anyone want to buy an older boar past his breeding prime? Have you spend generation refining for qualities that give you an advantage in the market place over the farmer next door, and if they got hold of the boar could they not steal all the effort you put into getting an animal that gave you an edge over the competition. If you sell them as a pet, is their temperament suitable for a hobby farm or to be around kids. Would they decide one day that little janie with that bucket of slops might be good to jump on and try and have sex with, they are not light animals a human as a partner isn't a new idea if they have done it before back in their breeding days.

If you are emotionally attached to an animal it can certainly sway the equation to going down the pet path without a question, but as I've tried to point out there is a lot more to it than first might appear. Sometimes a bullet is just the best out come in the situation.

I had a bull, I had had sex with him numerous times, I had a bond with him, but wasn't in love with him as such, he was hand raised and had no fear of humans he knew a human (me) could give him sexual pleasure, he weighed 800kg 10x my weight, which proved to be an issue when his foreplay got out of hand one night and he broke my leg. I needed to keep him seperate from some new calves and their mothers, but he wanted to breed the cows so he started smashing gates in attempts to get to the cows. Basically something had to give, he was well built enough for my needs, but he wasn't a prized breeding specimen so had no real value to other farmers as a bull for breeding purposes, so that meant the only place he would be going was to be turned into hand burgers. But how could I send him off for others to eat, who never knew his other side that friendly calf had been who followed you around or that strong lover who could milk ever last drop of cum out of me as I was draped over his back hugging his back while balls deep in his tail hole. So I made the phone call to a butcher who would come out to the farm and shot him out in the small paddock so he never saw it coming one minute he was eating fresh juicy grass he loved and the next it was all over. He kept me fed for well over 18 months and I thanked him every day for his gift of nourishment he had given me and vowed to remember him. Taking his life being a healthy young animal was very hard, but at the end of the day he had become a danger and it had to be done. So I did it the best way I could think to resolve the situation.

It's all far more black and white when your not the one making the call, life and death is not always easy when you hold it in your hands. How emotionally involved you are with an animal can hold a lot of weight and I would have moved heaven and earth to get one more day of life for my beloved GSD. But sadly farm animals bring a whole host of complicating factors with them it's far to often not a simple thing even for a zoo who cares about them.
Wow that is pretty hard to read.

It sucks that's actually a regular occurrence. And the worst part is you did everything right and still had to give the axe.

At least you do the best you could and give them the best life
 
Wow that is pretty hard to read.

It sucks that's actually a regular occurrence. And the worst part is you did everything right and still had to give the axe.

At least you do the best you could and give them the best life
At the end of the day I think that is really all we can do, to give those animals in our care the best life we can and when the end comes ensuring a peaceful journey into what lays beyond. In the wild rarely do animals get to their maximum possible life length, if a predator doesn't see you as an easy mark when you start to slow down a bit, then a younger male might decide to take you on killing you or driving you from your herd which leads back to you being an easier target for the predator again. Life isn't always fair.
 
I had a problem with this because despite that it is a working farm, if you have sex with a creature even an animal it's not right to do nothing and just allow them to die. You are extending a part of humanity to an animal when you do that which changes things in my opinion and in that situation it would be imperative to advocate to family members who own the farm to preserve the pigs. Is it just me who has a problem with the arrangement this woman is involved in?

Yeah, I couldn't do that. However, the real ethical problem here is that kind of factory farming. Realistically, she would have to build another, maybe even bigger farm as a rescue where she moves all the pigs that are spit out by this cruel system. While that would definitely be a move I would like and expect to see in a zoophile, it will be an excessively expensive thing to do.
 
At the end of the day I think that is really all we can do, to give those animals in our care the best life we can and when the end comes ensuring a peaceful journey into what lays beyond. In the wild rarely do animals get to their maximum possible life length, if a predator doesn't see you as an easy mark when you start to slow down a bit, then a younger male might decide to take you on killing you or driving you from your herd which leads back to you being an easier target for the predator again. Life isn't always fair.
Do you believe an afterlife exists?

I had many instances of my lifetime to say yes.
 
So if zoofilia is the sexual attraction to an animal that when manifested presents itself as love, connection, and emotion between the human and the animal whereas bestiality is sex between human and animal, in the first example of the woman having sex with boars that will be killed since it's a working farm and not intervening with her grandparents who own the farm, in my opinion this woman is more of a bestialist than a zoophile. Although maybe zoophile just means attraction to animals but not connection to them.
 
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So if zoofilia is the sexual attraction to an animal that when manifested presents itself as love, connection, and emotion between the human and the animal whereas bestiality is sex between human and animal, in the first example of the woman having sex with boars that will be killed since it's a working farm and not intervening with her grandparents who own the farm, in my opinion this woman is more of a bestialist than a zoophile.
For the obsessed point of view. You could argue that even if somebody's plea made no difference or at least some consideration if she has bonded with at least one of them.

However considering your words in my view yes it would be bestialist if she didn't try to preserve that special individual.
 
Others have posted a more complex situation. But the OP's friend, is that any different then the guys who lost their virginity to one of the farm's cows/sheep/goat/pig? Probably feels wrong to those of us who have love for our animals, but is it abuse, in of itself? No.
 
So if zoofilia is the sexual attraction to an animal that when manifested presents itself as love, connection, and emotion between the human and the animal whereas bestiality is sex between human and animal, in the first example of the woman having sex with boars that will be killed since it's a working farm and not intervening with her grandparents who own the farm, in my opinion this woman is more of a bestialist than a zoophile. Although maybe zoophile just means attraction to animals but not connection to them.
Well the word literally means animal (zoo) love (philia) so it does embody more than just a sexual aspect in relation to animals.

If this person was only really interested in the sex with boars and did not have any emotional connection with them then yes that would be pretty much a definition a of bestialist. The question though is are we talking about her only having sex with just one boar who she had developed a deep bond with or several of them just being used for sexual gratification (hopefully mutual sexual gratification). While polyamorous relationships are not uncommon in the animal kingdom they are slightly less common in humans. But I am not ruling out the possibility she cared deeply for all of them.

It would be far easier to put a case to her grandparents to spare one boar than a group of them. Assuming she is not involved in the management or husbandry of the pigs what reason could be given to save the animals from their early fete. Is she in a position to take them to another location and care for them as a pet and the fund needed to maintain them if we are talking about several animals. One of the biggest traps animal lovers can get into if they start rescuing animals is paying for all the expenses to keep them all happy and healthy.

If she has all the time and resources needed to take over their care, I can see a possible path to save them. Otherwise her options really are limited. Unless we are only talking about a single boar in which case it's a little easier to plead for clemency this one time.
 
Do you believe an afterlife exists?

I had many instances of my lifetime to say yes.
I'm the son of a preacher man, and you know what they say about them "The only man who could ever please me, was the son of a preacher man!" What you don't know that verse of the song? :gsd_wink:

I believe in more than just the here and now, but I also think organised religion has caused so much harm to humans and animals since it began that it is not necessarily a good thing either. Is there a heaven as described in a holy book, or is our energy just released back into the universe. I don't know, but if I get to the purlly gates and theirs a sign saying no dogs allowed I'm going to keep walking down the cloud covered road to a simple wooden gate where all the animals have gone and will spend my eternity there with those that I have lost.
 
I'm the son of a preacher man, and you know what they say about them "The only man who could ever please me, was the son of a preacher man!" What you don't know that verse of the song? :gsd_wink:

I believe in more than just the here and now, but I also think organised religion has caused so much harm to humans and animals since it began that it is not necessarily a good thing either. Is there a heaven as described in a holy book, or is our energy just released back into the universe. I don't know, but if I get to the purlly gates and theirs a sign saying no dogs allowed I'm going to keep walking down the cloud covered road to a simple wooden gate where all the animals have gone and will spend my eternity there with those that I have lost.
I heard of a ghost cat a couple times so there's hope in that regard.
 
It's a complicated thing I experienced twice now.

Both times I befriended a local bull. We spend time together and had alot of fun. But I did know the time would come when I would visit him and he would be gone. Both time it broke my hearth, but I did know, that it would happen, and that I could do nothing to prevent it.

I just tell myself that these two bull's just got sold, and now life a happy life in a herd of other cows,even tho that it's probably not what realy happened... It's a cruel world.
 
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So this woman is at the farm daily getting bred by all the boars ? Sounds kinda made up situation.
And if the boars don't want to have sex with her or hogs, there's nothing she can do and its not up to her to decide because she doesnt own the animals.
 
The pig is killed, then it becomes food or, if it is not suitable for human consumption, then dog food.
Pigs are farm animals, they are killed, humans or dogs or cats food, etc. eat they flesh. I don't understand what the problem is... They do the same with cattle, sheep and goats. Sometimes with the horse too.

And the woman doesn't feel passionately attracted to the pigs, she just simply has sex with them, why should she care what happens after that?
There is a difference between a pet and a farm animal. If you have your own pig (or other farm animal) that you keep as a pet, that's another matter.
 
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