In the US, we'll have to fight it in the courts

[arcticwolf69]

For you to have a chance in the event that you were, though, we're going to have to have an organization on our side similar to Lambda Legal, and that takes a lot of time and money to build. It's a lot of leg-work, and it's very complicated. I have no idea how we would really get started. I just know that it won't actually get started until the community has more organization and cohesion, and I have made up my mind that this is where to start.

i agree that is one of the big steps.
However, i think a step just as important and possibly the most important. Education for the masses is needed.

At this point, the best hope most zoos have is weathering an appeal on their own and getting a very narrow court ruling in their favor, but weathering an appeal by yourself is not all that easy. You would be in a much worse situation trying to weather an appeal on your own.

Unfortunately that is the only current option i am aware of
Unfortunately, how exactly can this be truly done. Even a good lawyer needs many things to base his claims upon that show unequivocally that there was no abuse that took place. Arguing that it was not abusive, to people who can not believe it is not, wont change their perceptions. It needs to somehow be proven it was not. A very big part of the problem against a defense. The main reason most such cases end up in a plea deal and not actually being fought against.
The vast majority of the population have never been around animals. The vast majority of the population who have been, have never seen an animal as the true amazing companions they can be, and never truly lived with an animal, as an actual part of their lives. The vast majority of the population has not the slightest clue how emotional animals can be and non verbally show those emotions and feelings.
The prosecution decides who is placed on a jury. They will not allow a supporter on the jury. They only want people with no clue who will simply agree with it is icky and wrong and must be abolished at all costs.
These are people who must see why there opinion is wrong. You can't simply claim it is wrong, it needs to be proven that it is. Why it is wrong.
Claiming the animal enjoyed it and wanted it and initiated it can't be simply claimed. It must be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt or at least proven that it is very possible. How can any person or lawyer prove this to people who do not wish to believe it. There needs to be something out there that can be used to prove it. That's why many people have been jailed and had their lives ruined and their partners destroyed even when the animal was male and did the deed. They simply claim the animal was trained to rape people because it never would choose do such things on it's own. Therefore said trained rapist of humans is a danger to society and will likely rape other people if given the chance.
it must somehow be proven to those who do not wish to believe an adult animal can choose to have sex with a human because it gets satisfaction from it and does not need to be trained to simply do it.
I think a big part of success will only be achieved when the masses can some how be educated that not all sex with animals is rape.
Lawyers need something they can prove that shows not all animal sex is abuse. That it is not simply wrong because it is immoral to most people. Animals do not have human morals and never will. Applying morals to them is pointless. Lawyers need a way to prove these things so they have something to fight with.

 

[arcticwolf69]

Tone the language down a bit please.

Noted. I did in fact get let my emotions get carried away. Topics like these often get heated when not intended to be. Such topics to often bring out serious emotional reactions.

 

[arcticwolf69]

The worsening of zoo laws has been a LACK of activism and representation. The hide in the shadow games has literally made things worse. Thats the truth of things and continuing to do so will only make things worse as it has in the past.

i do not see it as lack of activism. I see it as mostly lack of representation.
We all know or at least should, that hiding changes nothing and yes continuing to hide will not change it.
I think we all have serious legitimate reasons to remain hidden at the moment.
Are YOU willing to chance ruining your life, chance the life of your significant other? Those are serious reasons most of us are in fact hiding who we are from the rest of the world.
I am old enough destroying my life no longer matters as much as it once did.
Destroying my companions life DOES matter to me.
No matter how much i might wish things to change, chancing my companions life for the sake of possibly helping other zoo's in the future WILL NEVER HAPPEN. His life does in fact matter more to me then the lives of any zoo i have ever known. In many ways his life matters more to me then my own.
I have seen it stated many times over the years "the only people who can make a serious attempt to change things, are those who do not have as mush to lose by doing so."

Nothing has ever truly been accomplished, because very few are willing to chance losing what they have.

I have seen many preach about these changes being needed thru the years on forum after forum. We all agree they need to be in most cases.
When was the last time you seen some of these people post a link to something they themselves have actually tried in the real world? Lot of such folks seem to only preach how wrong things are and why it needs changing. But they only seem to preach it on a zoo forum where they are at least somewhat safe to preach such things.
Some things have been tried with marginal success. Yet they have little support to push things farther and people complain that they do not get enough support. To many of us have too much to lose by supporting some things no matter how much we might wish to.
I wonder how many of the folks who complain about the lack of support for such organizations actually out in the real world publicly support them.
One of the "activists" here has pointed out many times that this place is not private and everyone must be very careful of what they say here unless it gets used against them somewhere else. If this activist is scared of posting in this tiny forum about these things, what do you think that chances are that they are not more terrified of saying things in the real world public places.
I can not help but wonder.... they have the fortitude to point out the things that are wrong in the slight safety of doing so on this tiny forum.
Do they honestly have an actual pair of big enough balls to do so out in the real world. Or are they simply long winded preachers who only wish to stir the flames in relative safety, for their own attention seeking.

 

[ZTHorse]

i do not see it as lack of activism. I see it as mostly lack of representation.
We all know or at least should, that hiding changes nothing and yes continuing to hide will not change it.
I think we all have serious legitimate reasons to remain hidden at the moment.
Are YOU willing to chance ruining your life, chance the life of your significant other? Those are serious reasons most of us are in fact hiding who we are from the rest of the world.
I am old enough destroying my life no longer matters as much as it once did.
Destroying my companions life DOES matter to me.
No matter how much i might wish things to change, chancing my companions life for the sake of possibly helping other zoo's in the future WILL NEVER HAPPEN. His life does in fact matter more to me then the lives of any zoo i have ever known. In many ways his life matters more to me then my own.
I have seen it stated many times over the years "the only people who can make a serious attempt to change things, are those who do not have as mush to lose by doing so."

Nothing has ever truly been accomplished, because very few are willing to chance losing what they have.

I have seen many preach about these changes being needed thru the years on forum after forum. We all agree they need to be in most cases.
When was the last time you seen some of these people post a link to something they themselves have actually tried in the real world? Lot of such folks seem to only preach how wrong things are and why it needs changing. But they only seem to preach it on a zoo forum where they are at least somewhat safe to preach such things.
Some things have been tried with marginal success. Yet they have little support to push things farther and people complain that they do not get enough support. To many of us have too much to lose by supporting some things no matter how much we might wish to.
I wonder how many of the folks who complain about the lack of support for such organizations actually out in the real world publicly support them.
One of the "activists" here has pointed out many times that this place is not private and everyone must be very careful of what they say here unless it gets used against them somewhere else. If this activist is scared of posting in this tiny forum about these things, what do you think that chances are that they are not more terrified of saying things in the real world public places.
I can not help but wonder.... they have the fortitude to point out the things that are wrong in the slight safety of doing so on this tiny forum.
Do they honestly have an actual pair of big enough balls to do so out in the real world. Or are they simply long winded preachers who only wish to stir the flames in relative safety, for their own attention seeking.

Representation has to start with taking an active role not a passive one, thus activism. They are symbiotic. We are in a primordial stage, sure. We have to start somewhere after all and awareness is already being done by activist zoo's online. I'm happy to see this next generation of zoos doing it, and all for it. Discussion and debate are what gets people thinking and who better to do that then dedicated zoo activists?

 

[arcticwolf69]

I'm happy to see this next generation of zoos doing it, and all for it.

I am as well as long as they go about it in ways that might truly accomplish things
That i think is one of the keys like it always has been. It is a young mans fight who has not spent their lives trying to create a good life for themselves and their companions. The young who have a bit less to lose. Easier to pick up and move away if you get publicly outed.
The biggest danger in such a movement is that you have a serious chance a zealous fanatical anti zoo will out you in your community. This has only become much easier to do in this more advanced computer age.

Discussion and debate are what gets people thinking and who better to do that then dedicated zoo activists?

Agreed. The issue for most seems to center on the ways in which such some of these folks seem to be pursuing to achieve it.
There is a reason most folks have, to feel justified at negativity at some of these ways.
There is a reason like it or not most such topics get heated.
We need honest civil discussions to be more about the HOWS of changing things rather then arguments about why they need changed, we all know why they need changed.
Arguments about naysayers being just defeatists doesn't change how some feel. The discussions need to be more about why they feel that way. Some of those reason are legitimate to many here. Why are those naysayers always wrong. Some might have very valid points as has at times been brought up.
At the same time, it must also be recognized that not all activists are wrong and some do have good points.
We need some discussion topics about the HOWS of how to perhaps accomplish the changes we all need and desire. One issue with that i think is how to word the actual topic so it achieves the type of responses that are actually helpful. Real honest thought discussions and not simple because i said so types of arguments and debates.

 

[egoldstein]

There wasn't zoo activism before ZV. Co-ordinated efforts have literally just started, between twitter, podcasts, here and other social media platforms.

The worsening of zoo laws hasnt been because of activism because there was no activism in the BF era.

The worsening of zoo laws has been a LACK of activism and representation. The hide in the shadow games has literally made things worse. Thats the truth of things and continuing to do so will only make things worse as it has in the past.

Yeah, uuh no. The activism stuff has been around longer than ZV or BF. It was there in the mid-90's when I found the zoo scene and it wasn't shiny new even then. I don't know where or when it started, but it certainly wasn't here.

All of this has been done before and I don't think it'll get anywhere this time either.

I think one of the biggest problems we have is that our spokespeople are typically folks who've got nothing to lose, having already ben outed and dragged through the courts; most of them were poor choices for spokespeople to begin with. We have people here who agitate that they should be able to fencehop and fuck with other people's animals. We have people here who actively campaign against our own community because of gender. We have people here who are abusive and don't provide proper care for their wards. ZV would be a terrible platform for such activity because it would take little effort to find posts which antis could use against us. How anyone thinks we could get anywhere without fixing that shit first, I don't know.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

I think the self-same fact that the laws have gotten so bad might actually help our organisational efforts. If, as a community, we everything to gain and nothing to lose, at least spokespeople will not get bullied and bad mouthed so badly by other zoos. The cat's out of the bag. The world knows we are here. That fact will not change.

 

[ZTHorse]

Yeah, uuh no. The activism stuff has been around longer than ZV or BF. It was there in the mid-90's when I found the zoo scene and it wasn't shiny new even then. I don't know where or when it started, but it certainly wasn't here.

All of this has been done before and I don't think it'll get anywhere this time either.

I think one of the biggest problems we have is that our spokespeople are typically folks who've got nothing to lose, having already ben outed and dragged through the courts; most of them were poor choices for spokespeople to begin with. We have people here who agitate that they should be able to fencehop and fuck with other people's animals. We have people here who actively campaign against our own community because of gender. We have people here who are abusive and don't provide proper care for their wards. ZV would be a terrible platform for such activity because it would take little effort to find posts which antis could use against us. How anyone thinks we could get anywhere without fixing that shit first, I don't know.

The only activist organization I know is ZETA germany and as far as i could tell, they did have some success in fighting to keep zoophilia legal there. As the anti-zoo law there was overturned by constitutional court. As far as i can tell, their effort was better than keep your head in the sand method suggested here.

Online activism in the 90s was so tiny. Really, BF held back everything. Now we have twitter and social media platforms for online activism and discussion. Afterall, who can't say the current US president's claim to fame is twitter activism?

Truly, Zoo activism has just begun.

 

[silkythighs]

Such a load of blah-blah-blah crap. Over it.

Yes! Adults! Fucking great consensual sex with mature, adult dogs, who often make sexual advances towards people of their own volition.

Dogs have no legal standing, so calling a dog and adult is irrelevant. MY dog wanted it, is not a legal defense.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

What I think really held everything back was the widespread myth that society would forget about us as long as we stayed obediently in our filthy little pigeonhole.

Well, look where that got us.

I knew. Like us gay people keep telling you straight zoos, hiding does not work. It never works. It backfires every time.

It's not because you're stupid that this wasn't obvious to you. It took us gay people centuries to figure this one out. We didn't figure this one out because we are so much smarter than zoos. We just suffered abominably for hundreds of years, and then we slipped on a banana peel, got lucky, and fell face-down on the idea that we could always try just being more open and just humbly talking about ourselves with the public.

We didn't get it because we are smarter than you straight zoos, but we happened to slip on the banana peel and fall face-down on the idea that worked before you did.

Before you judge me for what I am saying here, I implore you to take a break from the keyboard, and watch this film.


If you are impatient, then you can skip forward to 1:01:22 and watch for a while from there.

Pay attention to the behavior of the gay men from that scene.

I get frustrated with some of you and call you "apostles of cowardice" because the way that some of you want to handle this does not work. It is never going to work for anybody. Keeping your head buried in the sand only invites more grief.

There were members of the LGBT community, during the 1950's and 1960's, that looked upon gay rights advocates with hostility, hatred, and contempt. They said, "No! Stop! You are only going to expose us even more! Stop!"

If it makes you feel any better, there was a time when the LGBT community was more miserably self-defeating than the zooey community is, today. Believe me that you would not be the first group of people that shot themselves in the foot.

Whether you are merely gay or merely zooey or both, society at large is made out of the same stuff.

 

[caikgoch]

The only activist organization I know is ZETA germany and as far as i could tell, they did have some success in fighting to keep zoophilia legal there. As the anti-zoo law there was overturned by constitutional court. As far as i can tell, their effort was better than keep your head in the sand method suggested here.

Online activism in the 90s was so tiny. Really, BF held back everything. Now we have twitter and social media platforms for online activism and discussion. Afterall, who can't say the current US president's claim to fame is twitter activism?

Truly, Zoo activism has just begun.

I had this same argument on BBS via a 1200 baud dialup modem. You want to know what happened? Look up "ASAIRS".

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

Prior to the head-in-the-sand policy that people were advocating during the entire Beast Forum era, the majority of zoos were just naturally out within the context of the subcultures that they identified with.

It was only during the Beast Forum era that this unholy alliance between anti-zoos and fearful idiots emerged, and they went on this anti-exposure crusade, swearing that the only way we could ever protect ourselves was to stay absolutely hidden from the notice of society at large. They ran things in that community.

If you look how @arcticwolf69 was trying to troll me, that's a classic trolling tactic. They will keep posting one side of what basically constitutes a canned conversation until the victim eventually sounds just enough like someone that was on the other side of that conversation, in the past, that they can say, "You are a sock-puppet!" and then they and the rest of the goons start sending in reports that a previously banned person may have created another account in violation of policy. You don't even have to type. You could do it with a set of macros or even a robot. It is erasure of a person's very identity. People like him got very accustomed to being able to get rid of anyone they didn't want to see very easily using the same tactics over and over. He was engaging in a trolling tactic that I had seen in the past, and I am pretty sure that this was normal behavior on Beast Forum. I am pretty sure that he and a lot of others on there shot down many good contributors using the same tactics.

What the Beast Forum generation thought they were doing was preserving the status quo, but they did precisely the opposite of preserving the status quo. The status quo in the past was that, back in the 1990's, I just told my friend that I roleplayed with online that, as a matter of fact, I do like animal sex. It was a natural sort of thing. I had never thought about the idea that I would ever hide it in any sex-positive environment. Every time that I did that, I was actually preserving the status quo, which was that everyone, everyone that had been to any venue that was even slightly sex-positive knew that there were many different sexual inclinations that were not otherwise widely accepted in society. What the idiots on Beast Forum did was that they went on an anti-exposure crusade. They deliberately undermined the natural exposure that we had just due to young zoos having never heard of the idea that they should keep it a secret.

Just because there might have been pro-exposure activism going on, there were a lot of people doing precisely the opposite during the Beast Forum generation of zoos. That generation of zoos absolutely shit the bed, and now the same filth are still on the same anti-exposure crusade that got us into our current situation. They will never understand the destruction that they have caused the zooey community.

Well, the gay community often had the same problem. During the 1940's through the late 1960's, there were misleaders in the gay community that urged other gay men to keep this aspect of their lives absolutely secret and to never tell anybody. Previously, back in the Roaring 20's, it had been normal for gay men to be relatively open because after all, you were at a speakeasy. Maybe gay sex was illegal, but so was the speakeasy. Everyone there was committing a crime. Nobody was going to report you for kissing a man because they didn't want to invite the cops in to ruin everything. It was only during the succeeding generation that the gay community developed a toxic, secretive underground culture. Instead of mingling freely with straight people and behaving naturally, they were engaging in this sort of destructive toxic escapism.

What happened to the zooey community is that the zooey community itself was struck by a toxic reactionary movement. They believed that they were going to restore a former status quo that never was. They successfully used the progressives within the zooey community as a scapegoat, and the entire zooey community developed this mass delusion that, just as long as they stayed obediently in their dirty, little pigeonhole, the rest of the world could never find them.

Prior to the Beast Forum generation, nobody in the zooey community believed that we needed some sort of "statute of secrecy" in order to protect ourselves. During the Beast Forum generation, this idea spread like wildfire and became predominant. Well, the zooey community followed that policy right to the hilt, and quite naturally, everything went to Hell.

The Apostles of Cowardice driving us zoos farther underground than we already were is what got us into this situation, and now those that didn't cuck out altogether want to double down on that destructive policy. The rest of us need to stop soft-handing them. They fouled the sheets, and is time for them to start owning up to that fact.

The worst fallacy of them all was the destructive and absolutely stupid belief that a forum with an animal sex theme is somehow invisible to the rest of society. It was absolutely contemptible stupidity.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

I think that the main message we need to get out, on this forum, is that this forum is not an invisible place. If you post on here, then you better believe that thousands of people are eventually going to see it.

 

[ZTHorse]

I had this same argument on BBS via a 1200 baud dialup modem. You want to know what happened? Look up "ASAIRS".

Wow now that is interesting. Asairs is quoted in alot of books by the search. Definately will have to read more into it

 

[Puhp]

Wow now that is interesting. Asairs is quoted in alot of books by the search. Definately will have to read more into it

There's plenty to read. Less so if you want to stay inside a neutral or pro-zoo echo chamber. It can be hard to read (and stomach) much of the anti-zoo material, but I think it's critically important to understand both sides of an argument, so that one might be able to glean understanding (and seek the validity each side holds to).

I HIGHLY recommend "The International Handbook of Animal Abuse and Cruelty: Theory, Research and Application (edited by Frank R. Ascione)" for holding both pro-and anti-zoo content. Look specifically for "Bestiality and Zoophilia: a Discussion of Sexual Contact with Animals" by Andrea Beetz on page 201. It seems the most neutral, and has some strong conclusions. Related (but on the anti- side) is "Rethinking Bestiality:: Towards a Concept of Interspecies Sexual Assault" by Piers Beirne. I don't recommend reading this last one if your ire is easily awakened, but it's important to understanding our enemy, as it were.

 

[Puhp]

I think that the main message we need to get out, on this forum, is that this forum is not an invisible place. If you post on here, then you better believe that thousands of people are eventually going to see it.

Ultimately, this is a GOOD thing, right? Don't we want to be seen to be more public, more widespread, more normalized, more acceptable?

(note: for those of you who are unsure, this is a rhetorical question)

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

Ultimately, this is a GOOD thing, right? Don't we want to be seen to be more public, more widespread, more normalized, more acceptable?

(note: for those of you who are unsure, this is a rhetorical question)

It comes with a burden of responsibility. It can be a good thing if the people posting here are conscious of that.

 

[arcticwolf69]

Prior to the head-in-the-sand policy that people were advocating during the entire Beast Forum era, the majority of zoos were just naturally out within the context of the subcultures that they identified with.

Help me and many others understand your point here please. the majority of zoos are just naturally out within the context of the subcultures that they identified with. Yes. Most of us see no reason to announce to the world what our sexual preferences are. I have no want, desire or need to tell anyone other then the the people who are a serious part of my life. I do not want, desire or need to know what any one else's is. We discuss our prefrences in a place like this because there are some here who have similar preferences we can discuss these preferences with. We do not discuss such prefrences on general porn sites because they have no desire or even interest to know ours. Most of us have no wish to know theirs. Why do you see something wrong with keeping private the things that have no reason to be other then private.
What are you hoping for if zoos start announcing to the entire world what our sexual preferences are?
Are you wishing for zoo's to simply talk about our sexual preferences out on the street to anyone we wish too?
98% of the world do not wish to know and i do not wish to have people telling me their sexual preferences just because they can.
It is NOT hiding it is called decency. Things that happen in the privacy of my home is NO ONES business.
Why do you seem to think you need to be able to discuss your sexual preferences to any one you wish, and have them accept it.
Are you wishing to be able to wear zoo pride shirts or something to that effect.
If you wish zoos to have such "rights", does that not mean everyone has that same right what ever their sexual preference happens to be? Necrophiliacs, Scat lovers, and the list goes on that the majority feels disgusted by.

It was only during the Beast Forum era that this unholy alliance between anti-zoos and fearful idiots emerged, and they went on this anti-exposure crusade, swearing that the only way we could ever protect ourselves was to stay absolutely hidden from the notice of society at large. They ran things in that community.

fearful idiots!! Back your ass up right there!
Many of us have spent our entire lives with blood, sweat, and sacrifices that seriously hurt. In order to provide the best possible home and care that we could for our companions. They matter much more then any zoo or all the zoos on the planet. I ans many others have been around for many years on various forums and have seen with our own eyes, have personally KNOWN people that were outed by anti zealots and not only had their lives destroyed but had their companions killed. A few i have known committed suicide over such things happening to them. Our fears are JUSTIFIED! We are NOT anti-zoo's. We are not trying to hide from the world. We simply wish to keep our PRIVATE sexual practices private.
We see no reason to tell every single person we meet that what our sexual practices are.

What are YOU hoping to change? And why?

If having a sexual attraction to a few aniamls that show the signs of being sexually attracted to us was 100% accepted in modern society. NOTHING in my life and the majority of the zoo's in the world would change. I would still be keeping my sexual preferences private. What happens in my bedroom or barn is private between me and my partners. Why would that change. I see it as decency and respect for others feelings who might find it disgusting. If my sexual preferences were completely vanilla i still do not have the right to force anyone to listen to me chat about it. Why would i even want to? Then they have the right to tell me theirs. I do not want to hear about the kinky things my neighbors do with their partners.
If your worried about the asinine laws about bestiality. How do those laws truly effect your life. How will you get caught and persecuted if you practice the deceny of doing such things in private like most other non zoos do. Unless you take stupid chances to get caught, that you KNEW before hand it was risky to chance in the first place.

 

[dogluver101]

This is why I've been trying to decide whether to make a zoo blog on this website (Zooville), or make a zoo blog on a "normal" blog website (Tumblr, Wordpress, Wix, etc.) A concern I have (which may or may not be true) is that making a blog on this website may not reach a wider non-zoo audience (i.e. if a blog is made within Zooville, the audience may be mostly zoos within this website). A concern I have about making a zoo blog on a "normal" blog website is that one's security is not a high priority to major blogging platforms, meaning that writing blog posts about something as marginalized as zoo sex on a "normal" blogging website might be risky.

I've also noticed that currently-active pro-zoo blogs (outside of Zooville) generally don't exist on the Internet (or, if they do exist, they are rare). I've asked people many times if they can list any currently-active zoo blogs on major blogging platforms like Tumblr, and no one ever responds (which means, I assume they can't think of any blogs).

Also, even though Zooville has more than 19,000 members as of December 2019, there's only about 3 blogs in the Zooville blog section. There ought to be more zoos writing blogs (but I guess most people are "lurkers").

You asked this many, many times before... I answered and said there is most likely none. You can make one in our Articles and blogs section... It is also open for guests to view. So you have a chance to make one......

Also, even though Zooville has more than 19,000 members as of December 2019, there's only about 3 blogs in the Zooville blog section. There ought to be more zoos writing blogs (but I guess most people are "lurkers").

Well, you talk about how badly you want to have one. Write one. I said what I said when you made your first post ever since on blogs. Unless you're ignoring me. I'm not repeating myself again.

 

[arcticwolf69]

If you look how @arcticwolf69 was trying to troll me, that's a classic trolling tactic.

How exactly was i trolling you? I responded in just a few of your posts where you stated you opinions based on your perceived perceptions. That invoked an emotional response in me. I therefore went right to the reply box and typed out my feelings on the matter from my different perspective.
You have the right to voice your opinions. I have earned the right to voice mine from my different perspective from not simply wishing and thinking i am zoo but knowing it. Like it or not, agree with it or not. It is, my perspective from over 30yrs of actually living with my companions. Doing what i ever had to do, to make certain they had best quality home and care i could possibly provide. I am perfectly willing to change my opinions when someone has something meaningful that makes more sense to me then my current opinions.

They will keep posting one side of what basically constitutes a canned conversation until the victim eventually sounds just enough like someone that was on the other side of that conversation, in the past, that they can say, "You are a sock-puppet!"

Is that not exactly what your are doing, some one makes a valid argument against your perception and you immediately start yelling defeatist and start deflecting the entire conversation to something that is not even remotely related with out EVER addressing a single reason, point, or question?

People like him got very accustomed to being able to get rid of anyone they didn't want to see very easily using the same tactics over and over. He was engaging in a trolling tactic that I had seen in the past, and I am pretty sure that this was normal behavior on Beast Forum. I am pretty sure that he and a lot of others on there shot down many good contributors using the same tactics.

What tactic am i using to troll you? Because i have a different perspective then yours i must be nothing more then a troll?
Would you like a poll started about WHO is using the exact trolling tactics you claim i am using?

What the Beast Forum generation thought they were doing was preserving the status quo, but they did precisely the opposite of preserving the status quo. The status quo in the past was that, back in the 1990's, I just told my friend that I roleplayed with online that, as a matter of fact, I do like animal sex. It was a natural sort of thing. I had never thought about the idea that I would ever hide it in any sex-positive environment. Every time that I did that, I was actually preserving the status quo, which was that everyone, everyone that had been to any venue that was even slightly sex-positive knew that there were many different sexual inclinations that were not otherwise widely accepted in society. What the idiots on Beast Forum did was that they went on an anti-exposure crusade. They deliberately undermined the natural exposure that we had just due to young zoos having never heard of the idea that they should keep it a secret.

This one is admittedly hard for me to decipher your exact meaning here.
first "The status quo in the past was that, back in the 1990's, I just told my friend that I roleplayed with online that, as a matter of fact, I do like animal sex. It was a natural sort of thing. I had never thought about the idea that I would ever hide it in any sex-positive environment."
Are you saying that this is what everyone thought and did? We just willy nilly tell anyone in roleplay that we like animal sex because it was a natural thing to do?And never need to hide that fact in any sex positive environment? Why would any decent person wish to inflict their sex preferences on people we think would likely not like it?

They deliberately undermined the natural exposure that we had just due to young zoos having never heard of the idea that they should keep it a secret.

This i understand your meaning of ... however ... what natural exposure was undermined?
young zoos having never heard of the idea that they should keep it a secret.... are you willing to clarify this statement?
What secret exactly .. that they should not tell just anyone they meet about their love for animals, because if they did not know, it was illegal in most places discussing animal related things will get you banned in most non zoo places, and if you post pics and vids people can use those things to get you prosecuted? I don't remeber people being told to keep it secrect, just be very selective in what you say or pic or vid posted to anyone you do not fully trust, to try and keep them from doing something stupid by not knowing it is illegal and have their lives ruined. Many of us have seen this exact thing happen, and people commit suicide because they got outed by something they didn't know or care was illegal.
How is that wrong?

Just because there might have been pro-exposure activism going on, there were a lot of people doing precisely the opposite during the Beast Forum generation of zoos. That generation of zoos absolutely shit the bed, and now the same filth are still on the same anti-exposure crusade that got us into our current situation. They will never understand the destruction that they have caused the zooey community.

Most of us are NOT and have never been anti-exposure. We are against negative exposure. Broadcasting flamboyant zoo pride and such things in public places will likely do nothing more then offend the majority of the population. Who will simply see it as trying to rub it in their face type of thing and force them to listen to, or see what deeply offends them. Do that to me with something that offends me you will never get me to accept it or piss me off that it is being forced on me to witness.

The worst fallacy of them all was the destructive and absolutely stupid belief that a forum with an animal sex theme is somehow invisible to the rest of society. It was absolutely contemptible stupidity.

I wish someone would make an actual poll on how many people think any zoo forum is private .... bf was the largest publicly visible by guests zoo forum and the most famous one on the net. i bet a poll would show 99% of people KNOW it was not private. The same way this place is public accessible and NOT PRIVATE

 

[egoldstein]

I had this same argument on BBS via a 1200 baud dialup modem. You want to know what happened? Look up "ASAIRS".

Ah, good 'ole ASSHAIRS.
One of my favorite examples of how we don't need someone from the outside to cause damage, got enough of our own narcissists right here willing to burn shit down.

 

[UR20Z]

Ah, good 'ole ASSHAIRS.
One of my favorite examples of how we don't need someone from the outside to cause damage, got enough of our own narcissists right here willing to burn shit down.

Yep, Randy was a piece of work, all right. Between him and Shawn (AKA Fetty/Equamour/PonyPusher) we had all the "bad press" we could ever wish for.

 

[egoldstein]

Yep, Randy was a piece of work, all right. Between him and Shawn (AKA Fetty/Equamour/PonyPusher) we had all the "bad press" we could ever wish for.

For those digging into the past, he liked to conjure personalities for his sock puppets and had so many even he couldn't keep them straight for long and would occasionally send diatibes from one, but written and signed by another.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

Anyhow, I am going to continue with my local outreach. I am hopeful that other local outreach efforts are going well. If mine fails or does not come to anything, then maybe another will go somewhere.

I prefer online hangouts that are not strictly zooey, and I have had them come under attack by anti-zoo trolls that thought they were going to burn me and other zoos out, troll us, send in a lot of baloney reports against us, and get us treated like vermin. I never cause any trouble at my regular hangout. I don't even talk about anything heavy there very often. I can't stay stressed out all the time. I'll die. They didn't count on the fact that my friendships within that community go back a generation, and I thereby have inertia. I managed to defend my haven, which has always been my peaceful third place where I am just me.

I didn't last two days on Beast Forum. It was a rough neighbourhood ruled by troll gangs. You people that were there put yourselves in this situation. You can change your way of doing things or not.

 

[knotinterested]

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

I will be starting a fortnightly blog of my own, and I hope to have something ready by this Saturday evening. I can be a little dry, but maybe if I keep doing something regularly, I can get better at presenting my ideas with practice. I will eventually discuss this there.

 

[knotinterested]

I will be starting a fortnightly blog of my own, and I hope to have something ready by this Saturday evening. I can be a little dry, but maybe if I keep doing something regularly, I can get better at presenting my ideas with practice. I will eventually discuss this there.

Make sure to let us know when and where to get to your blog.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

I have decided weekly. I have an idea for it.

 

[Zoo50]

Most of us are NOT and have never been anti-exposure. We are against negative exposure. Broadcasting flamboyant zoo pride and such things in public places will likely do nothing more then offend the majority of the population. Who will simply see it as trying to rub it in their face type of thing and force them to listen to, or see what deeply offends them. Do that to me with something that offends me you will never get me to accept it or piss me off that it is being forced on me to witness.

I am offended by anti-zoo laws. Anti-zoos have been pressuring zoos (with their unjust anti-zoo laws) over the past 20 years, and I find that deeply offensive. I also find the anti-zoo laws to be morally wrong, unjust, and discriminatory. Why is their right to not be offended more important than the right of zoos to not be offended?

Their anti-zoo activism needs to be counteracted with some kind of pro-zoo activism -- how to accomplish that, I don't know, because like you already said, public pro-zoo activism is too risky for most zoos.

 

[UniqueAmerican]

While I deeply believe that inroads will be made toward legitimizing zoosexuality, without question it will take at least many decades.

As for human beings existing as a product of evolution, I have to disagree. Humans are not animals, but it is that fact that makes our identities as zoophiles so profound.