Is Debating the Opposition a Waste of Time?

Is it beneficial to zoos for them to debate rational non-zoos on the ethics of their relationships?

  • Yes, debating is worthwhile.

    Votes: 18 54.5%
  • No, debating is a waste of time.

    Votes: 15 45.5%

  • Total voters
    33

ShanoirII

Citizen of Zooville
NOTE! PLEASE READ AT LEAST THIS RED TEXT BEFORE VOTING: By "debate the opposition", I do not mean get into catfights with immature screechers over Twitter. That obviously yields no fruits (even if it is kind of funny sometimes ;)) - I am talking about addressing complaints from real, level-minded, reasonably-competent people who genuinely think zoo is immoral, yet are open for a discussion about the subject.

If the zoo community ever hopes to gain the smallest smidge of recognition in the world at large, discussing the aspects of zoo with people who disagree is absolutely necessary no matter how you spin it. You cannot get people to appreciate your legitimacy if you never defend yourself against the erroneous mental image they have of you. Some people can lurk in the shadows, all fine. But if everyone did as such, we would never get anywhere at all. As Germany set the example for, victories - even small ones - are not impossible.
If a chance to strike down a new, weak anti-zoo law ever appears, the zoo community will be dreadfully underequipped to handle themselves if caught in their present, disorganized condition. It may be wise for some people to engage in inconsequential practice debates with rabies-vaccinated anti-zoos over the internet. This could act as training for any serious legal situation that could come up. Remember, lawyers are a bit more reasonable than YouTube Comment Crusaders, even if it may not seem like it sometimes, and they have at least a few rules they are bound to.
I am fully aware that the political power of a few nameless zoos is next to nothing. But nobody ever said a zoo had to come out publicly to be an ally, nor that they had to even give their names at all. There is much benefit that the anonymous agent can bring to the community, to fellow zoos in danger, and to defend zoo legality in areas where it is in jeopardy.
If the zoos in question are unprepared to take action though, they would be sheep sent to slaughter.
The ability to defend the legitimacy of zoophilia, zoosexuality, zooromance, or whatever, being in the hands of the average zoo is of paramount importance to the community. Personally, the reasons zoo should be accepted may seem obvious to you, but if asked, could you defend them? If the average zoo could not, our community is in deep trouble. Zoos must be able to present themselves as capable before they are taken seriously.

I would suggest a simple chat - nothing elaborate, heck, even Discord - where two people, a zoo and a nonzoo, could rationally discuss the ethics of zoosexuality. I am under no delusions that random people on the Internet can be converted to zoo allies en masse. This is for the edification of the zoo in the discussion, so that they may have skills that are better applicable elsewhere.

Along with your vote in the poll, please tell in the comments whether or not you would be willing to participate in such kinds of debates, and under what conditions. If you would not be, a simple "Blimey, ShanoirII is for the high jump." is good enough.

If you remember anything from my psychotic ramblings here, remember this: Whoever you are, wherever you go, you are a representative of the zoo community whether you like it or not, inasmuch people know you are any extent of zoo, the sexuality or platonicity, or the personal label of your relationship making no difference. It is too bad it has to be that way, but with the way people's prejudging minds work, your likeness will be the imprint in which people will see all the rest of zoos, be it good or bad, logical or illogical. The world's view of our community is in our hands. We are our own city upon our own hill.
 
Interesting idea. I do not consider myself to be good at heated debates. I focus on other areas. Like discouraging zoo in the presence of fetish seekers and removing abusive and bad porn from at least this website.

The world's view of our community is in our hands.
Well the I feel we are utterly screwed. Have you seen the porn section and the questions people ask here? Make your own picture on how many people here actually care about the state of the zoo community.
 
The Worlds view......hmmm....you say that like theres a remote hope of changing it. Why ? The POV of humanity in general regarding this has been fixed for centuries. It has been the butt of jokes probably since the Cro magnon discovered they had neighbors who were different. If those so-called Zoo cave sketches were really of zoo activities, Id be surprised but you can be reasonably sure they were not expressing general practice. At least, not unless it was the Cros dumping on the local Neanders. I dont doubt that domesticates were used sexually, but I will argue all day about it being acceptible, except as hunting ritual. In the Middle Ages, Chaucer and Boccacio made a great deal of fun of Zoo activity, the latter writing of dribbling the heat fluids of a bitch upon the hem of a Rejecting love interests skirt, then hanging behind as she ran, to enjoy the mutts chasing her around town. There are 19th century French Cartoons representing similar stories, and George Sand and Alfred De Musset's little cutie called "Gamiani". Youre trying to overcome 200 centuries of prejudices without offering anything to the average mundane to replace them with. Once upon a time one could point a finger over the ridge, and say"Oh Heavens no! WE dont do that sort of thing, but THEY DO over there>>>>>!". The French word "Bougere", which we know as 'bugger' actually means Bulgarian. Funny....as a National slur, its often applied to Greeks, but that's how prejudices work....its always someone else far away who practices such distasteful things....so how do you get them to accept this.....? You don't. As far as the City on the Hill is concerned, I've never Found zoos interesting because they are ZOOS. IF they're interesting, it's a matter of whom they are, not whatever sexuality they profess. So what reason would I have to live in that hilltop town? That a question with no real resolution.
 
I'll just quote my conversation from yesterday a bit:
Oh, now I have noticed something:
"Wtf..... No get the blowtorch this man can’t live."
5 posts later:
"I just want to know why as I have never talked to one and I want to be kinda understanding to everyone."
An hour of conversation later:
"You’re a good person who wants to make the animal happy"
I guess I can't really judge the people by their first comment

Im sorry TwT
I thought of the bad kind

nah, that's normal on reddit

You’re good
Like alot of ppl I meet are either bad or mean and I didn’t think
Im sorry for saying that
I really am

Well the I feel we are utterly screwed. Have you seen the porn section and the questions people ask here? Make your own picture on how many people here actually care about the state of the zoo community.
Ok, I probably should force myself to read them, gotta have an idea of what's happening.

[EDIT]
Soo I did. And couldn't find much really. Either you moderators do a very good job or abuse is not that common after all. At least in the comments. Or my sample was just lucky. Everyone was extremely horny but... that's to be expected? I don't know, I can't find anything wrong there after about 2h.
 
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I think that we are slowly winning. Generation Z seems to be adopting a laissez Faire outlook when it comes to sexuality in general.
 
Depends on the person. If that person isn’t willing to learn, then debate is useless. Even if someone doesn’t agree with bestiality and zoophilia but wants to learn about it, it’s worth it in my opinion. Just gives more knowledge on the subject, if anything. Doesn’t matter if they agree or disagree. Knowledge is power. And knowledge of zoophilia and bestiality is very biased and limited down to “Psycho people who rape animals”.

For example, I don’t like race supremacy, but I’ve encountered many people with that ideology, and I’ve learned why people feel the way they do. I still don’t agree with the ideology nor can I say that I like it, but I can understand where they’re coming from, and have less of a knee-jerk reaction towards it because I got curious and delved down the rabbit hole.

The more you learn about something, the less shocking it is to hear. The less shocking it is, and the less of a knee-jerk reaction we get from people. That’s how I see it.

At the end of the day, I’m for fruitful discussion. If a conversation isn’t going to bear me fruit, I stay away from it. But if a conversation allows for dialogue and even just a hint of education or understanding, then I’m personally for it. Even something as simple as differentiating zoophilia from zoosadism makes a world of difference, as most people view them as one and the same.
 
NOTE! PLEASE READ AT LEAST THIS RED TEXT BEFORE VOTING: By "debate the opposition", I do not mean get into catfights with immature screechers over Twitter. That obviously yields no fruits (even if it is kind of funny sometimes ;)) - I am talking about addressing complaints from real, level-minded, reasonably-competent people who genuinely think zoo is immoral, yet are open for a discussion about the subject.

If the zoo community ever hopes to gain the smallest smidge of recognition in the world at large, discussing the aspects of zoo with people who disagree is absolutely necessary no matter how you spin it. You cannot get people to appreciate your legitimacy if you never defend yourself against the erroneous mental image they have of you. Some people can lurk in the shadows, all fine. But if everyone did as such, we would never get anywhere at all. As Germany set the example for, victories - even small ones - are not impossible.
If a chance to strike down a new, weak anti-zoo law ever appears, the zoo community will be dreadfully underequipped to handle themselves if caught in their present, disorganized condition. It may be wise for some people to engage in inconsequential practice debates with rabies-vaccinated anti-zoos over the internet. This could act as training for any serious legal situation that could come up. Remember, lawyers are a bit more reasonable than YouTube Comment Crusaders, even if it may not seem like it sometimes, and they have at least a few rules they are bound to.
I am fully aware that the political power of a few nameless zoos is next to nothing. But nobody ever said a zoo had to come out publicly to be an ally, nor that they had to even give their names at all. There is much benefit that the anonymous agent can bring to the community, to fellow zoos in danger, and to defend zoo legality in areas where it is in jeopardy.
If the zoos in question are unprepared to take action though, they would be sheep sent to slaughter.
The ability to defend the legitimacy of zoophilia, zoosexuality, zooromance, or whatever, being in the hands of the average zoo is of paramount importance to the community. Personally, the reasons zoo should be accepted may seem obvious to you, but if asked, could you defend them? If the average zoo could not, our community is in deep trouble. Zoos must be able to present themselves as capable before they are taken seriously.

I would suggest a simple chat - nothing elaborate, heck, even Discord - where two people, a zoo and a nonzoo, could rationally discuss the ethics of zoosexuality. I am under no delusions that random people on the Internet can be converted to zoo allies en masse. This is for the edification of the zoo in the discussion, so that they may have skills that are better applicable elsewhere.

Along with your vote in the poll, please tell in the comments whether or not you would be willing to participate in such kinds of debates, and under what conditions. If you would not be, a simple "Blimey, ShanoirII is for the high jump." is good enough.

If you remember anything from my psychotic ramblings here, remember this: Whoever you are, wherever you go, you are a representative of the zoo community whether you like it or not, inasmuch people know you are any extent of zoo, the sexuality or platonicity, or the personal label of your relationship making no difference. It is too bad it has to be that way, but with the way people's prejudging minds work, your likeness will be the imprint in which people will see all the rest of zoos, be it good or bad, logical or illogical. The world's view of our community is in our hands. We are our own city upon our own hill.
Let me be clear about my views, since many people misunderstand them.

1) If somebody is trolling zoophiles on Twitter, you must resist the urge to "debate" with them. Twitter's algorithms are made to perceive any active conversation as relevant, so regardless of whether you are a zoophile responding to an anti-zoo troll, reacting to an anti-zoophile tweet will only boost it based on Twitter's algorithms. This tends to be true in general social discourse, but Twitter just magnifies this effect of making the loudest and most toxic individuals appear to be important and representative, so toxic rhetoric tends to spread on there like cancer.

2) Nevertheless, you should not reinforce toxic negativity in any context. If a person is toxic, you do not want them to represent our allies, anyhow. Think of it this way: do you really want people that behave literally like the definition of fascist to represent your point-of-view? Leave those people as evidence to others that the people that hate us are indeed crazy.

3) Start with people that are vaguely open-minded to zoophilia who know you at a personal level, and progressively get them more informed about what this fact about you actually means. If somebody is indeed open to being an ally of zoophiles, arming them with an informed stance on our views and concerns makes them better able to transmit those views to other people.

4) When you are confronted with the topic of "consent," merely merely copy-paste all or part of the following: "We are talking about a mutually pleasurable act, not euthanasia. I need no more to prove my dog's consent to sex than you your dog's inclination to go and play with a bouncy ball. By the way, let me remind you that you are allowed to have your dog euthanized for little or no reason whatsoever. If our society genuinely cared about whether or not our animals consented to anything all, then this would raise more eyebrows, but the more likely explanation for most people's reaction to animal sex is that they merely find it to be disgusting. If you do indeed believe that you are justified in branding somebody as a criminal merely for being disgusting, then you should merely acknowledge that this is a fact, rather than making up stilted explanations based off of flawed syllogisms rooted in toxic, politicized pop philosophy, so you can get back to the important business of hanging people for being homosexual or having them stoned to death for adultery and fornication. As long as you believe that you should be allowed to put your dog to death for any reason whatsoever or even to have your dog castrated based on no believable argument besides your own convenience (humanitarian arguments for it are self-justifying rubbish: you do it because a castrated dog, like a castrated human, is easier for you to dominate), then I deny that you care very much about whether your animal consents to anything at all, so why is it suddenly important for me to prove that my dog consents to an act that both of us clearly enjoy, except that you find the video of it to be disgusting? Until I have unequivocal proof that you do not ignore the question of your animal's consent whenever it is convenient for yourself, then I must take you in profoundly bad faith if you are concerned about it when it uniquely inconveniences me."

5) Do not use anger when pitching an argument. Mild aggravation is okay, but when you are repeatedly moved to rage by somebody, your energy is better invested elsewhere. Throwing good money after bad is not really all that good of an investment.

6) When talking to anybody about your sexuality, a question you ought to have at the forefront of your mind should always be, "Would I make better progress by talking to somebody else?" Honestly, if you could spend your time better elsewhere, then you ought to do so. Use your time and energy responsibly.

7) Learn to imitate other zoophiles that have been successful at changing people's minds and winning new allies. When you see something being done that clearly works, then merely use the same approach that they use. If you are not getting anywhere, then find other zoophiles that are, and then observe what they do. You do not need to try to figure it all out on your own. Find someone else that is genuinely making inroads with potential allies, and let those people be your aspirational group. All the best artists in history learned most of their craft from mentors, and their own uniqueness has generally been a small alteration on previously established means of creating beauty. Art is 99% imitation, 1% uniqueness. Why should crafting the methods of persuasion be perceived any differently?

8) Again, never EVER waste time arguing with somebody if they are more valuable as an example of the fact that our enemies are clearly bonkers. A person that is clearly paranoid and mentally unhinged and histrionic is more useful to you as a patsy than as an ally. Before engaging with somebody that is clearly off their rocker, ask yourself, "Is this person more valuable to me as an example of how crazy and evil anti-zoophile trolls really are?"
 
based upon what you put in red it is worth debating but only if both people us included can adhere to going in with our opinion being an opinion and not the cold hard fact. when both parties are set in their ways and not willing to view it from the other side then it is pointless
 
It's only a waste of time if neither side knows how to debate well, which goes for any contentious topic. Discussions of hot topics can only go anywhere if both parties rationally lay out the bare-bones framework of their justifications in logical progression, and most people unfortunately can't do that. Emotion clouds judgment to such an extent that it's conflated with rationality, especially when those emotionally-based conclusions are reinforced through cultural and subcultural echo chambers.
 
I voted yes, but in due time it may be worth while. I think when some super rich guy gets caught and has a highfalutin lawyer, a crack may be found in some aspect of the laws. But it has not happened yet to my knowledge.
 
I think saddlebum summed it up pretty good.

Humans have a tendency to hate what they don't understand and we have been doing it for a very long time, maybe we have a chance these days, times are changing, people are becoming more accepting of different sexual orientations and it's great. I think I see a light off in the distance, maybe there's hope, but there is always someone that will be stuck in that old mindset, unwilling to embrace another for being themselves no matter how off the wall those ideas are.

Who knows how long old mentalities will take to fade, only time will tell...
 
Wow, I think this is the first evenly matched poll I’ve seen here.
 
Just look at racism in America. You'd think we could get over it by now.

I think saddlebum summed it up pretty good.

Humans have a tendency to hate what they don't understand and we have been doing it for a very long time, maybe we have a chance these days, times are changing, people are becoming more accepting of different sexual orientations and it's great. I think I see a light off in the distance, maybe there's hope, but there is always someone that will be stuck in that old mindset, unwilling to embrace another for being themselves no matter how off the wall those ideas are.

Who knows how long old mentalities will take to fade, only time will tell...
 
Just look at racism in America. You'd think we could get over it by now.
Racism will never go away as long as people are people. It’s been around since the dawn of time. It’ll continue to be around as long as we force ourselves into boxes based on color. We can minimize it, but light always creates shadow.

I don’t really care if it stays or goes. I’ve adapted. I just want the violence to stop. Have racist views, sure. As long as you’re not trying to take away peoples’ basic human rights, then you do you. It’s the violence I wish we’d get over. That shit is getting old. No one should have to die or be beaten for something they can’t control.
 
In my honest opinion, it’s 110% situation dependent. If you have a person who’s open-minded to other stances and willing to learn, it’s very worth your while. However, if it’s a person who been caught up in said view their entire life, narrow-minded, and an all around textbook definition of a bigot, you’re just spitting into the wind.
 
I’ve discussed it with a few non zoo people but it has really lead to nothing. It’s left me feeling awkward and alone. This is why I voted that it is not worth while. The discussion quickly turns into a “I feel” vs “they feel” conversation with neather one gaining ground on one subject or the other. I choose now to avoid the subject unless they are also zoo or at least sexually open minded.
 
Racism will never go away as long as people are people. It’s been around since the dawn of time. It’ll continue to be around as long as we force ourselves into boxes based on color. We can minimize it, but light always creates shadow.

I don’t really care if it stays or goes. I’ve adapted. I just want the violence to stop. Have racist views, sure. As long as you’re not trying to take away peoples’ basic human rights, then you do you. It’s the violence I wish we’d get over. That shit is getting old. No one should have to die or be beaten for something they can’t control.
I don't think it's necessarily the color of one's skin that drives racism, it's the culture of that particular person, we don't understand each other and that's the problem, nobody wants to understand the person next to each other. They just want to draw there own conclusions based on assumptions derived from what background they have as a person culturally.

More acceptance is needed for sure!
 
I think that we are slowly winning. Generation Z seems to be adopting a laissez Faire outlook when it comes to sexuality in general.
In my experience on Furry Twitter, the attitude among Gen Z is incredibly polarized. It's pretty trendy to throw out a "zoos are not welcome here" virtue signal, and people are pretty quick to jump on the bandwagon when someone gets outed as zoo. Maybe this is more a symptom of Twitter's echo chamber, or specific subculture I follow, than it is of the entire generation as a whole. If anything, I would guess that (former) hippies are/were more sexually inclusive than Gen Z overall.
 
Anyone can debate but the issue is if either side is closed minded no matter what, its extremely unlikely to change views. Our world has us humans along with animals and everything else. The only species that cant decide whats normal, not normal, right, wrong etc etc is us "evolved" ones. Hope things can change but im sure i will have melted long before then. Live in hope for the word normal to be so much more expansive ...
 
I voted that it's a waste of time. When you get down to it, there are very specific legal and economic reasons why we are oppressed. Focusing on changing laws and supporting businesses that support us should take priority over arguments. Persuasion should only come into the picture if we are absolutely sure that we are outnumbered in votes or dollars and we need more people on our side. Other than that, organization and coordinated action are key to our success. Zoophilia will become normalized once the fear surrounding it goes away, and the only way to achieve that is to change laws and make sure that you won't lose your livelihood for being a zoo or supporting zoos.
 
Debating is a waste of time regardless of topic. You'll never change anyone's mind.
Debate is not the same as argument. In a "true" debate, both sides present their positions in clear, consciously constructed ways with the intent of persuading those around them. Debates can only happen if both parties consent to the ground rules. Otherwise, it's just two people talking past each other.

And even beyond convincing your interlocutor of something, another purpose of debate is to convince those around you of your position. Even if you can't persuade one person who's already come to their conclusions in some quasi-rational way, you can still influence your undecided audience.
 
In my experience on Furry Twitter, the attitude among Gen Z is incredibly polarized. It's pretty trendy to throw out a "zoos are not welcome here" virtue signal, and people are pretty quick to jump on the bandwagon when someone gets outed as zoo. Maybe this is more a symptom of Twitter's echo chamber, or specific subculture I follow, than it is of the entire generation as a whole. If anything, I would guess that (former) hippies are/were more sexually inclusive than Gen Z overall.

This isnt a symptom of echo chambers, its a directed, DEFENSIVE reaction from 50% of the furries who actually ARENT into zoo and are sick of getting lumped in with dog fuckers.. or the other 25% that exaggerate their rage in a projection of denile because they cant come to terms with the fact all that yiff makes them uncomfortably hard....

That just leaves the remaining 1 out of 4 that say nothing.. which you should immediately question WHY.. - is it just a guilty silence.. or are they just afk at the moment?

because if theyre afk.. its best to go check on your OWN animals to make sure theyre not gettin fucked by em - cuz everyone knows furries are not responsible enough to own pets. ;_)
 
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