You summed it up almost perfectly, as the "few" are actually the many. Millions of people in governments control the lives of us peons to an extent that most cannot and will not realize lest they fall apart and mentally break entirely.
Do trained dogs have free will?
- Thread starter Reconscope
- Start date
Your subconscious mind certainly can play a role but there's ways around this, from paying attention to your own thoughts all the way to meditation (assuming it works as advertised).
saddlebum66
Supreme Citizen of ZV
You're welcome to feel that way....you might even find that happening, if you live a few thousand years. If you do, I wonder what you'll try to do to stay alive. I'm sure you'll say. " Nothing" NOW, but that's an easy statement to make right up til it starts happening, and you recognize it.
Humanity isn't always what we'd wish it to be, but as far as ANYONE knows....we're all there is. You're always free to check out, friend.
Humanity isn't always what we'd wish it to be, but as far as ANYONE knows....we're all there is. You're always free to check out, friend.
saddlebum66
Supreme Citizen of ZV
Double posted
Last edited:
Panda Chen
Zooville Settler
This is subjective but I think they would likely attack if given the order. Where I think the free will comes in is that only the dogs that are receptive to that kind of training make it to that point. A lot of dogs are rejected at some point in the training because they won't do certain things. Unfortunately in some places those dogs are put down but it is unlikely they know that is the consequence.
The ones that make it to be fully trained have chosen to accept that training. When they are choosing puppies they look for certain traits that will predispose a dog to being trainable in that way. Same with assistance dogs. Not all dogs are willing to be trained for a particular task. Those that are have chosen to be that, those that are not are rejected.
The ones that make it to be fully trained have chosen to accept that training. When they are choosing puppies they look for certain traits that will predispose a dog to being trainable in that way. Same with assistance dogs. Not all dogs are willing to be trained for a particular task. Those that are have chosen to be that, those that are not are rejected.
T
Tailo
Guest
The one who targeted the animal wasn't the one who forced it into the middle of petty human squabbles. I think it would be more appropriate to be sickened by the person who put the animal there than by the persons who do their best to survive the confrontation with the horse-rider team.
T
Tailo
Guest
Being created does not rule out free will. Furthermore I would like to add that not only were dogs shaped by humans, but humans were also shaped by dogs. Domesticated animals and dogs in particular played a huge role in the history of civilization.
Reconscope
Prized Citizen of ZV
Excellent answer i am glad you opened this thought with us.
Reconscope
Prized Citizen of ZV
So very true they came from wolves afterall in the "early game" humans had to depend on them to survive in certain situations.
dartel
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Oh I most certainly do blame the person forcing the animal into the conflict too. And both persons are fucking morons for going to war to begin with.
MarlinCatch3
Zooville Settler
The question of free will is fascinating. I don’t have a great opinion on it but here goes:
- MRI scans show that thoughts (actually many thoughts concurrently) emerge from our subconscious.
- The loudest thought enters our consciousness and we have no control over which of those subconscious thoughts is the loudest.
This indicates there is no free will.
However
- We dont have to act on the thought that wins
So we can decide to reject what ever unfreewill thoughts we have.
That’s the Physics/biology of it.
Then there’s the training problem of which we are all aware, political and religious bubbles, cultural bubbles etc. These come into play where you receive information and play to your emotions.
My takeaway is that our brains are barely functional if functional at all.
- MRI scans show that thoughts (actually many thoughts concurrently) emerge from our subconscious.
- The loudest thought enters our consciousness and we have no control over which of those subconscious thoughts is the loudest.
This indicates there is no free will.
However
- We dont have to act on the thought that wins
So we can decide to reject what ever unfreewill thoughts we have.
That’s the Physics/biology of it.
Then there’s the training problem of which we are all aware, political and religious bubbles, cultural bubbles etc. These come into play where you receive information and play to your emotions.
My takeaway is that our brains are barely functional if functional at all.
Panda Chen
Zooville Settler
For the most part we don't choose what happens to us but we choose how we react.
Recently rehabilitated a dog from a bad situation. One individual criticized me for training him too much and therfore taking away his freedom. But how I see it is that the more he is trained the more choices he has. If he knows how to function in society he can come with to more places and interact with others. He doesn't have to but he can. Giving him more options to have more experiences and make more decisions. That is what learning does, it opens up the options and having options is part of what free will would be. Untrained means all they have is their instincts to rule them. They don't have a choice. They will just follow the strongest feelings and react to things instead of making a choice.
Recently rehabilitated a dog from a bad situation. One individual criticized me for training him too much and therfore taking away his freedom. But how I see it is that the more he is trained the more choices he has. If he knows how to function in society he can come with to more places and interact with others. He doesn't have to but he can. Giving him more options to have more experiences and make more decisions. That is what learning does, it opens up the options and having options is part of what free will would be. Untrained means all they have is their instincts to rule them. They don't have a choice. They will just follow the strongest feelings and react to things instead of making a choice.
milabue
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Of course they do. It's a silly question.
Dogs are social animals, that NEED an alpha. They want to please the alpha. That's just what they are. Training, for a dog, is letting the dog know what you want when you say something. It makes them happy when you are happy with what they do. The alpha knows best and wants the best for us, so we should do as the alpha says because it will make everyone rich and happy.
Humans are like that too, to a lesser degree.
Training dogs is paying attention to them (just don't get excessive).
Cats, however...
Dogs are social animals, that NEED an alpha. They want to please the alpha. That's just what they are. Training, for a dog, is letting the dog know what you want when you say something. It makes them happy when you are happy with what they do. The alpha knows best and wants the best for us, so we should do as the alpha says because it will make everyone rich and happy.
Humans are like that too, to a lesser degree.
Training dogs is paying attention to them (just don't get excessive).
Cats, however...
MarlinCatch3
Zooville Settler
It’s a very deep philosophical question. Science has attempted to answe it with MRI scans and its looking like there is no free will. For me it seems obvious that there is no free will simply by imagining a world with complete free will. It would be chaotic and random and disordered,
milabue
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
ok, at the level of basic physics, maybe everything is deterministic like Conway's 'life' automata and the like
but the uncertaincy principle throws that for a loop
and if our universe is deterministic, there is no way for our limited minds to perfectly predict ... things
therefore it will always be random-looking to us, and so let's be real: life is random
MarlinCatch3
Zooville Settler
At a physical level/quantum level, yes random. At a details level even after wave collapse still not computable so yes random. But that may not be what’s happening in the brain, we dont know. What we do know is that thoughts emerge from our subconscious and we don’t have control of that process. This means there is no free will, we can only access those events that make it through to our consciousness. It seems the architecture of the brain doesn’t allow free will. I’m saying this is probably a good thing. Randomness is probably not good. I am making a leap that free will is ransom. Even quantum physics isn’t truly random when you get down to the probabilities.
Panda Chen
Zooville Settler
The alpha thing is a misunderstood thing that was regretted immediately but humans liked it. Humans want to be alphas. Which is usually an excuse to be an arrogant jerk.
What dogs want is a comforting and well defined social structure with consistency and security. Doesn't have to be hierarchical. That is a human preference which shapes the dogs that adapt to the human social order.
Panda Chen
Zooville Settler
There is no complete free will in the sense that everything shapes and influences everything else it contact and the same for people but there is choice mostly in how one responds to those influences.
Panda Chen
Zooville Settler
This makes it sound like the subconscious is a completely different identity, which does not seem to be the case. The subconscious most definitely is influenced by the conscious and yes vise versa but it's imput in is defined by the conscious choices and the conscious can be influenced by the subconscious output but doesn't have to be. What comes out of the subconscious isn't necessarily random either. It is often unresolved thought or sensory input. The thought is directly from the conscious. The sensory input is from the environment that you are in whether you believe you choose that environment or not. Those things your conscious mind ignores as unimportant information the subconscious processes and determines based on your needs and preferences if there is anything important in the thoughts or sensory input that was not picked up on or resolved from in the conscious mind. It also categorizes and puts order to memories and thoughts. Which is why people often seem to suddenly have an answer to something when they have slept or stopped consciously thinking about ot for a while.
Panda Chen
Zooville Settler
Not necessarily, they only have free will if they know they have another option, it is the ability to choose and you are always going to have those that will not conform but is that free will or their biological nature.
In concept they all have the potential for free will but you only have free will if there is a choice.
It also is one of those nearly unprovable concepts because there is inevitably always other factors that are influencing each individual and how much of an individual is them and how much are other influences like biology and environment.
I personally think there is more pointing to at least an amount of free will but it is not certain and maybe I think that because of my genes and upbringing. Ineffable.
Sramichoo
Zooville Settler
For this to be about whether dogs do or do not have free will, you need to specify what definition/variation of free will you're using. If you don't, you're just going to end up with the same debates of what free will is and does anybody have it, with multiple people answering using their chosen idea/believe. Such debates have been going on since the days of Epictetus and likely before then. There are dozens of views/beliefs/definitions/theories/etc on free will. Compatibilists, Incompatibilists, Scientific Approaches, Theological, "Free will as a pseudo-problem," "Free will as an illusion" and so on. Those groups are split into groups within themselves that have subgroups of those groups and not a one defines free will the same. I guess if you bothered to define it down to a specific view you believe/agree with you could have answered your own question and wouldn't have needed to write this post in the first place. 
MarlinCatch3
Zooville Settler
I think the science (MRI scans) shows there is no free will. Thoughts emerge from the subconscious before one is aware of them. The MRI scans show the brain reacting to questions and images before the person is aware he/she is reacting. However this doesn’t dissolve us of responsibility for our actions. The timing delays in the MRI scans are sub second. Most people cant fuck a dog that quickly.
There’s a separate question about the plasticity of the brain. I think that’s a bit different. One can grow up a Christian and convert to Islam. But I think most people are not open to new ideas because its not comfortable. Self included.
Panda Chen
Zooville Settler
So it's transferring inputs and data before sending it through the cpu and to the main memory for analysis. Doesn't make you not have free will just means it's an interesting feature if the brain. That would be like saying a computer doesn't process and calculate data because it has to download or input it first. Of course part of the brain does something with data before it gets to the conscious part of the brain. It has to get there somehow. It's not just magically there.
MarlinCatch3
Zooville Settler
It’s more like the data was downloaded and processed on a separate computer and the answer then sent to your computer. You can accept or reject the answer, if you reject it you will have to ask the other computer to have another go, Fwiw I don’t know if these scans hold up under complex problem solving but for simple Q/A in an MRI scan that’s what I think happened. The entire processing is in the subconscious.
Fwiw its counter intuitive because if you ask yourself the same questions your subconscious will have already told you what questions to ask and sent you the answers and or the algorithm to figure the answer out. So it all feels like its playing out in your conscious brain.
Panda Chen
Zooville Settler
You do realize that is all speculative. It is what you or someone else believes happens. It's may not be what is happening or how it works at all.
MarlinCatch3
Zooville Settler
Of course, there is no theory of the brain yet. However the MRI evidence seems to be the consensus from neuro scientists and it’s backed up by the experiences of people who meditate. Fwiw I tried to validate the theory and experience it with meditation but I was unsuccessful. I am unable to meditate.
I do have experience with dreams and I am 100% sure they have nothing todo with my consciousness so I guess there’s that. I’m not prepared to do what some people do and take hallucinogenics to understand consciousness.