The Dark Forest and why zoophiles are screwed through inaction

Zethin

Zethin

Tourist
This was first a theory used to address the fermi paradox but I think many of you will appreciate the parallels to our own community and the non zoo "greater civilization" around us.

In the book of the same title Liu Cixin
Lays down three core assumptions to be made regarding the interaction between groups. I've modified them slightly to make the comparison I'm trying to draw more obvious

  • All life desires to stay preserve it self
  • There is no way to know if other groups can or will destroy you if given a chance.
  • Lacking assurances, the safest option for any species is to act pre-emptively in some manner.
All of these being given the parallels are daunting. As a group we (zoophiles) are not a group that is focused on by the mainstream culture. Yes we are vilified and grossly misrepresented. But our existence is minor (for a given value) in the collective consciousness of the greater public at large.

Trying to gain legal rights and representation, via activism may not produce a desirable effect.
Reasonably the best pre emptive strategy then would be to stay quite and keep our heads low.

However this requires that we all do this collectively a small number of people can disturb this balance and such a thing has been happening recently.

Recently public opinion and legality around zoophila has become more negative you can see this in the general public and the various internet subcultures wherein zoophiles were once tolerated. There are no individual social cost for arguing against zoophilia but many for arguing for it. Now much more so than 4 years ago.

Predictably this had caused a backlash of activism from zoophiles on social media twitter being a good example and a surge in the popularity and public exposure of pro zoo content.

This is only going to increase and Because of all of this the strategy of stating quite is no longer viable. Eventually if people keep trying to equate us to abusers, rapists or draw parallels to us and pedo. We could see a future were we are seen in a similar light and then only way to access a forum like this would be through a nervous and sweat inducing session of prowling questionable .onion links.

As a result of all of this? I think our best strategy is to tackle this head on and take the actions we can BEFORE the public becomes to conscious and hostile towards us.

Some things I think we can do are.

Create a consistent and ever growing repository of information and makeup it more
Set up organizations (with as much anonymity as possible ) protecting and advocating for zoo related education legal protections advocacy and rights.

Continue to produce and distribute content that *emphasizes* the importance of animal welfare and consent in our communities.
Ect ect.

If it's only a few people doing this the numbers won't be enough to counter act the bad press. But if we do it in large enough and consistent efforts we could make a lasting change before we pass the point of no return so to speak.

Sorry for the negativity of the title I may be a bit depressed today.

Anyway please let me know how you feel about all of this. Just try to keep respect in mind.
 
I understand your point, and I can definitely understand the idea of a "grassroots" type movement where, through positive community involvement, we could make positive steps forward, therefore increasing our acceptance in mainstream society. However, just looking at a few of the major challenges that just the LGBTQ+ Community had to go through for some measure of success, we would not have these luxuries. **I do not mean to cheapen the successes of the LGBTQ+ society here, what they have accomplished in the last 60+ years has been nothing short of incredible**

A few advantages I feel the LGBTQ Society has had that has helped the cause immensely:

1: The existence of Allies. The LGBTQ movement had stagnated in a way until a massive media campaign was possible painting these relationships as normal, beautiful, as "people like anyone else" etc. This was huge in shifting public perception in a way that changed allies to not just ignoring LGBTQ rights (it doesnt affect me, so why do I care?) to active involvement. This happened because people were able to come out to friends etc. who then became involved and sympathetic to the cause. It is much easier to change a society, if you have allies who are part of the society.

2: The US attitudes towards sex, intimacy, and the sanctity of the family. Dont get me wrong, I think times are changing for the better, and they will continue to do so at a jump, lurch, and backslide pace (as most social movements have occured in the US). But I think the larger issue is the harming attitudes that mainstream society has towards sex. Just look at our Cinema, any Nudity or talk in movies lands movies an R rating, but we are able to show gratuitous amounts of violence, real or implied and still maintain a PG-13 rating. I am using this example simply to show that there is still a "Hetero sex between two people, that is to remain behind closed doors at all times" ideal here in the US. People are uncomfortable with sex and the many forms it may take. Any sexual activities that deviate from this model are considered paraphilias and need to be treated to some extent. This has changed for the better a little with non-normative sexual structures, as well as with LGBTQ rights, but has a long way to go before it would include things like zoophilia. Hell, even BDSM is considered Depraved and in need of eradication in some areas.

3: Money, in the end we live in a capitalist system, and money has to come into the movement in some respect. Now I do not know how many billionaires or even millionaires may be interested, or participating in Zoo, but I do not think the numbers are high. We would need to create non-profits etc. to help fund the cause. I hate to say it, but I think the willingness of people to donate to the cause would be sparse at best. It would also come in direct conflict with spending from huge Corporations (lets be real, this is what they are) from PETA, and all of the religious institutions in the country. The money just isnt there to make large community impacts and therefore positive PR campaigns.

4: Sensationalism, and the media. The much more click-bait worthy article will always be the "mentally ill" person who likes to fuck animals, not the out of my pocket animal care and wellfare advocate who cares for many animals so they may lead a long, happy, healthy life. This is true even without the zoo element involved. The PR is just not great no matter how you look at it.

This ended up getting away from me a little bit in length, but I want to tie this back to your Fermi-Paradox point. The part you quote is only one small piece of the possible solutions to Fermi's Paradox, and the true Paradox simply States asks about the "Apparent contradiction between the lack of evidence for extraterrestrial civilizations and various high estimates for their probability." I think there are many ways for a society to survive, thrive, and grow. But currently I think it is best we do not sour public opinion at this Nexus, and simply wait for society as a whole to change its sexual attitudes. Honestly, it probably wont be in any of our lifetimes. The best we can do is enjoy what we can, create social groups for ourselves that are fulfilling (in many different aspects as well) and simply be open if close friends are genuinely curious.

Also, I am open for criticisms on all of my points. Please let me know if I am being ridiculous!
 
Bucephalus said:
Now I do not know how many billionaires or even millionaires may be interested, or participating in Zoo, but I do not think the numbers are high.
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Probably enough but none of them is interested in changing the public opinion in such a way. If those people want something they just try to achieve it, we would see the effects.
 
Academics are still getting support to write about us; it's usually the young kids and Americans who hate us.

It does seem like a hiding game, at times, with laws slowly popping up where we haven't hidden well enough. That's what we tell ourselves, anyway, but there will always be the people who are weird enough to get caught while doing really nasty shit. At this point in time, pretty much everyone the public knows about is a tragic figure of some kind.

As near as I can see it, we've had a single victory. Some zoophiles stood up in Germany to come out and defend their ideas, and they got legal clarifications on the law that it only applies to physically abusive cases. And indeed, they seem to be the only group that's stood up like that.

It's definitely a tense game. We stand to lose everything if we do too little or too much. Each of us plays our own role in society, and we can only focus on bringing our authentic selves to bear. We can be good friends and compassionate members of our society, and reveal our truth to select people.
 
Left... Right... Left... Right...

Me and quite a few others have been marching to the same tune for awhile now, so instead of repeating an entire response I will just link to the earlier responses:

Class action defamation law suit against Humane Society?

Be a responsible dog owner, separate your females in heat, supervise em, or diaper em, and these places would have very little means to exist. Not to say I'm against shelters as I do agree they provide a place for dogs to be safe after coming out of a abusive situation and gives em an...
www.zooville.org www.zooville.org

If anyone wants to help participate there is a wikipedia page writing initiative that zooville started that is run by ZTHorse.

@SigmatoZeta @Pillar Feel free to leave additional responses if you wish.
 
@Zethin

I have evolved somewhat in my views.

The truth about misguided laws, which create victimless crimes, is that they are costly to enforce for no measurable benefit to anybody, so they really mean almost nothing unless there is currently a serious witch-hunt going on, which there was starting a couple of years ago in the wake of a serious outbreak of bad press caused by irresponsible people and a subculture of violent animal torturers.

The only way to avoid the whole world thinking that we are crazy, though, is to get enough reasonably mentally stable people talking continuously with the public, so when that kind of bad press breaks out, there will be at least a few people out there that are prepared to put the brakes on the resulting witch-hunt.

Invisibility is a myth. People can find what you post over media that you think is private using dark web search engines, and even if what you post on there is not outright evil, they take what they do see out of context.

Let me give you an example of how innocent things can be taken out of context when they are seen alongside things that people do not understand. You might only ever post a few shots of you masturbating your dog on supposedly private media that is visible to a dark web search engine, but one day, your dog loses a lot of his hair for reasons that turn out to an expensively treatable but potentially terminal illness, and continued scratching (because it itches) has left him covered in bloody lacerations. When you post a picture to your friend to ask for your friend's opinion, which is naturally going to be that you should rush the dog to a veterinarian, the problem is that it shows up in the same place where you were engaging in sex acts with the same animal.

Now, think of this from the standpoint of a snot-nosed kid that knows almost nothing about taking care of dogs over their entire lifespan and therefore does not understand the difference between the symptoms of an illness and a bizarre and sadistic sex act. What that snot-nosed kid is going to do is try to find a way to report you as a criminal.

Well, a shelter is not going to spend the 5 grand it takes to save your dog's life, so what the headline is going to say, as you sit in prison, is "violent animal rapist stopped, dog had to be put to sleep."

You might tell me, "but I am too SMART to get caught like that!" but the problem is that the IQ it takes to qualify as having "average intelligence" is really pretty pathetic, and zoophiles come in every IQ that is capable of existing. You have to share the world with other zoophiles that are not really all that bright. By the way, they don't deserve to be treated as criminals, either.

When distorted stories like that keep breaking out, which portray profound misunderstandings, it just stirs the people around you into a tinny, shrieking, frothing panic, and every time a bad news story breaks out, the kinds of people that are out there combing the dark web--or any other media where you have posted anything at all that suggests you are a zoo--for something they can use to ruin your life multiply like cockroaches.

You might withdraw from the Internet, altogether, but even if you did, then eventually, someone would spy what you are doing in the supposed privacy of your own home through a gap in your blackout curtains or, assuming you live in an apartment at some point, hear a strange noise upstairs, and with society absolutely convinced that you are almost certainly the most heartless thug that could possibly exist, you can trust me that you would have an entire police brigade that would be literally radiactively glowing with pride at the very thought of busting you and getting themselves photographed holding you up like a hunting trophy.

Therefore, invisibility is a myth. Attempting to remain invisible just makes it a certainty that what society actually does see gives society a distorted concept of what you are actually like, which leads to witch-hunts, which leads to entire police brigades having a manic obsession with getting their picture in the paper proudly holding you up like a hunting trophy. It backfires more than you could possibly believe.

The only thing we can do is get enough positive or at least not horribly alarming content out there that, when people see a mentally disabled teenager's pictures of himself sucking his dog's penis, rather than going into a moral panic over it, most of them will just make a gagging noise and move on. We have to raise enough awareness in society about what kinds of people we really are that people will at least know that most of us are not intentionally dangerous.

Even if they never actually like seeing pro-zooey content, they will at least get enough of a bellyful of hearing about us that they will be ready to think about something else.

I have a personal saying. The only things in your life that constitute your "private business" are things about you that people in your life are genuinely sick to their teeth of hearing about, and they wish you would never mention it to them again for as long as they live. That is the only thing about your life that you can really call your "private business." You don't own it until other people have told you clearly they don't want it.

As a consequence, anybody for whom it is safe to come out must come out, and they must harp on it until the people in their lives are pleading with them to shut up about it and never mention it again. This is the only way that we will ever get other people in your life to realize how little they really wanted to know about your sexuality, so when somebody happens to glimpse something through a gap in your blackout curtains, it will occur to them that they really would rather get a root canal without anesthesia than hear about the details of your sexuality.

The same thing happened with me being gay. I was all ready to have a thousand and one conversations with people about the fact that I was gay because, way back in the 1990's, when someone realized I was gay, it would invariably lead to a long and awkward conversation where I was supposed to represent every gay person that existed. Well, when EVERY gay person finally came out and when it was dinner conversation everywhere in the country, everybody had had their bellyful of the topic. Nowadays, when I mention my husband in conversation, the most that happens is that people flutter their eyelids a couple of times and then have a moment of realization that they would rather have their teeth pulled out using the old door-knob technique than do anything whatsoever to induce me to say anything further about it.

I was almost disappointed, but when I realized that I had a whole lot of other things to say to people, I was smiling a great big blissful smile like a Dutchman in a business suit on a bicycle in Amsterdam.

Saturate, saturate, and saturate some more. Eventually, people will get tired of hearing about it, and you will be able to talk with them about something else without something stupidly inconsequential being a distraction.

If the human race did not want the topic of our sexual inclinations entering into every conceivable conversation, then they would not have made our sexual inclinations something that we need to talk about with them just to make sure they don't dig up some stupid shit on the dark web to use as a pretext for a violent moral crusade. They brought it on themselves, so they deserve for it to be conversation at every dinner table in the country for as long as they live. I do not feel sorry for them.
 
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I wish we could take all these various methods people use to convince other people and put them to some kind of rigorous test to see which argument methods tend to be effective against which other groups of people. I feel like when it comes to arguing effectively it's kind of like the fable of the three blind men describing the elephant. We all have tried various methods and some of them worked in certain contexts, but a comprehensive view of the whole remains elusive.

While all of these individual strategies I think would work and be valid in various contexts, I just wish we had a more complete method of categorizing argument and counter-argument techniques and when to employ which.
 
As near as I can see it, we've had a single victory. Some zoophiles stood up in Germany to come out and defend their ideas, and they got legal clarifications on the law that it only applies to physically abusive cases. And indeed, they seem to be the only group that's stood up like that.
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If the ZooTT podcast is to be believed, there is a similar action being taken in France at the moment. Far less successful, might I add, yet something is better than nothing.
Personally, I am aware of two anti-zoo legislations in my neighboring state, West Virginia, that failed to carry through - zoo remains legal there still, though some rabid people are still trying to make it illegal (and I would bet $10000 they would include a clause sanctioning forced insemination in factory agriculture).
 
You guys are being crazy. MOST people consider us just a sliver away from pedophiles. Best thing we can do as a group is stay off their radar and the best thing we can do as individuals is make sure out treatment of animals and our overall character are such that if/when you are caught, that the people around you have a hard time imagining your animals are poorly treated.
 
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