Dog Whisperers Please Advise on Spay/Neuter Situation

BenTheir

Tourist
I need to make a decision by 19 February 2023. I have 3 dogs (call the 2 males OldFart & Pirate and the female, Perky) that are "unadoptable." They spent their lives outdoors on tow chains atop mountains of their own feces, being bred occasionally AFAIK. They are all intact. I bought the property from the owner's estate and kept the dogs instead of letting them be euthanized. They are pit bulls, not housebroken, and have a high prey instinct that could easily be triggered by my cat so they will not become housepets. People are terrified of them. They are sexually interested in dogs, not people, and I prefer to keep it that way.

I built pens for them so they are no longer chained. OldFart and Pirate are in the same pen as they generally get along, usually sleep together in the same doghouse, mount each other, and are happy for the company and contact. Poor Perky is separated by a divider fence and spends her day alone, chatting (barking) to any neighborhood dogs that answer. She would love to be part of the pack and play. When they have been all together, part of that play included Perky mounting OldFart (she was not in heat, but still a sexual invitation). Pirate, far bigger and stronger, then became more aggressive toward OldFart: "playing," but with a serious snarl that could have escalated without my intervention.

I have limited income and caring for them--especially the vet bills--is quite a stretch. I cannot afford vasectomies, etc., let alone puppies. The vet charges about the same for a spay or a neuter. I planned on making the appointment to have Perky spayed yesterday, but Pirate's aggression toward OldFart concerns me. Should Pirate and OldFart be neutered instead to lessen the chance of a serious battle between them?

Another question: Could Perky, if spayed, be injured through sex with the males?

There are people in this forum with insight. Your thoughts would be appreciated in reaching my decision.
 
I would spay Perky if I were in your situation. I wouldn't worry about injury if you are having a full ovariohysterectomy done as they shouldn't show interest in mating with her afterwards. I would not go the route of neutering as you run the risk of increasing aggression issues between the males.

I know no more about your situation than what you've said here but is it possible OldFart and Pirate should be separated for their own safety if they are having issues with each other?
 
I know no more about your situation than what you've said here but is it possible OldFart and Pirate should be separated for their own safety if they are having issues with each other?
OldFart and Pirate get along very well... Until Perky gets into contact with them instead of being separated by a fence. Having to separate them would still result in at least one lonely dog. Dogs belong in packs (even if humans are the pack members). They would sort it out eventually, but given that they are pit bulls I'm am concerned the dominance battle could become destructive.

I wouldn't worry about injury if you are having a full ovariohysterectomy done as they shouldn't show interest in mating with her afterwards.
They "shouldn't" show interest in mating with her when she's not in heat. But...

She "shouldn't" show interest in mating with them when she's not in heat. But...

Humans are not the only species that enjoy sex beyond reproduction, which is quite fortunate for many of Zooville's members.
 
Taking inspiration from @gsdmixg I'm exploring some other possibilities. Yesterday Perky got her first shower (with me, of course) and got to see my cat in the house. She was leashed and muzzled, fortunately, because her sole concern became hunting the feline (she also goes nuts about squirrels, which OldFart and Pirate generally ignore). Nor did she forget later in the day, continuing to run to the gate hoping to get a glimpse of her "prey." There went the notion of teaching her to be a housedog.

My goals are 1) No Puppies and 2) Best (reasonable and affordable) life for the animals. If any two dogs are happy together but three cause conflict...

OldFart is next for a bath. I know he wants to meet the cat. IF they get along, then housebreaking him might be an option.

Still hoping for more ideas or relevant experiences. I've read (Internet FWIW) of dogs mating after a spay and no mention was made of injury, but then I've also just recently come to learn of the different "spay" procedures. Why do they do a hysterectomy anyway? Am I mistaken in my understanding that canines penetrate the cervix during copulation?
 
I would adopt them out personally. Neuter and microchip. Unfortunately they have developed past a fantasy of a housepet or sexual companion. Think about trying to change the mind of a 50 year old human who has lived their entire life a certain way.

At that point its better to let them be and hope they dont cause any damage to the world until they eventually move on. Neutering and adopting them to someone who can deal with the breed is the best outcome. Maybe you can keep 1. But 3 "damaged" dogs is going to be overwhelming.
 
Another question: Could Perky, if spayed, be injured through sex with the males?
Sure could.
Even more, if she was "bred occasionally" and accepts one of the males mounting her even if she is not in heat, be it out of prior commanding for breeding or out of habit, sexual interest, whatever.

Rare, but not impossible. Male dogs ain't careful in regards of size differences. Heat doesn't interference with their baseline sexual interest, if they have experience and are physically able to do what they want to do. It just boosts the hormonal, focused striving for a specific activity, but this works the best if the female and males don't have much or any experience.

If a male dog knows how to hit the right angle, he can copulate even with somewhat "unwilling" females out of heat, as long as those stay still long enough. If the female dog is able to show clear signs (as it reads from your description), then it can as well result in internal wounds or damage. The female does not know that she's surgically changed internally. I can guarantee this.

The cervix usually doesn't get penetrated, but it is not technically impossible, regarding size or race differences, quite a few aspects. It depends a lot as well on the stature of the female, prior offsprings as example. Still: that's not this important for your plan, as:

If she is spayed in the common and quick ways, then the vets will not fulfill microchirurgical finelining and you will not have a cervix to get penetrated anymore, but a sewn shut, closed end of the vaginal canal tissue. This is due to the fact, that the cervix area (uterus side) as well consists of uterine cells and even a small area remaining of those could keep a risk / hormonal imbalances, heat symptoms and so on.

If she gets one of the microchirurgical solutions like an ovariectomy, which leave the uterus intact, she can still get inflammations on a quite low risk level, same for tumors / abscesses, but there's no risk regarding offspring or damages by copulation. Aside those that are existent between all intact dogs (the risk is never zero).

This would be one more finelined operation on your female dog, but you could leave both males intact without risk of impregnation. It as well reduces risks like fattening, loss of urine, growth of fur without cycle limitations and so on, same goes for leaving her completely intact.

If you let both males neuter, offspring would (after some days to weeks, in which there could still be functional sperm ejaculated - exact timeline is not existent, there are studies showing a few days to up to some weeks) not occur, aside other male dogs which might copulate with your still intact female.

This would reduce the hormonal activity in both males, which can inflict positive changes, but those changes are more prone to establish if neutering occurs at a young age and not after "already established behavior", which often works independently to some degree from their hormonal situation. Still, it is a possibility, but with variable outcome.

Another way, if you find a solution to handle this: train the dogs (all three) in regards to your cat(s), but don't expect them to get overly accepting or friendly with the cat(s), but check the girl Perky for heat symptoms regularly. If she shows that she's going into heat, then separate her physically from the males until you can be sure the heat cycle is over and no impregnation is possible anymore.

Depending on how you handle Perky and how the both males are reacting, this might work just fine - or it will not work at all and the males would terrorize, try to break loose, .. it's all up to the dogs and their previous experiences, personal character.

Lowest costs = separation in heat over several weeks by unbreakable physical barriers for them, separate walking rounds and so on. Second lowest costs = spaying of the female dog, but comes with risks, as you already assumed. Third lowest costs = neutering of both males. Higher cost but less side risks through tries of copulating even outside of the heat = ovariectomy as example.

Lots of possibilities, but many of them might cost some hundred bucks..

I think it's great that you care for your dogs and didn't let them get euthanized! Hope that you find a way for all of them to live happily with you (and the cat(s))!

If you see a possibility to part from one or two of the dogs and find reliable, good new owners with an interest and ability to handle those somewhat unfortunately developed dogs, that's an option as well, absolutely.
 
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I need to make a decision by 19 February 2023. I have 3 dogs (call the 2 males OldFart & Pirate and the female, Perky) that are "unadoptable." They spent their lives outdoors on tow chains atop mountains of their own feces, being bred occasionally AFAIK. They are all intact. I bought the property from the owner's estate and kept the dogs instead of letting them be euthanized. They are pit bulls, not housebroken, and have a high prey instinct that could easily be triggered by my cat so they will not become housepets. People are terrified of them. They are sexually interested in dogs, not people, and I prefer to keep it that way.

I built pens for them so they are no longer chained. OldFart and Pirate are in the same pen as they generally get along, usually sleep together in the same doghouse, mount each other, and are happy for the company and contact. Poor Perky is separated by a divider fence and spends her day alone, chatting (barking) to any neighborhood dogs that answer. She would love to be part of the pack and play. When they have been all together, part of that play included Perky mounting OldFart (she was not in heat, but still a sexual invitation). Pirate, far bigger and stronger, then became more aggressive toward OldFart: "playing," but with a serious snarl that could have escalated without my intervention.

I have limited income and caring for them--especially the vet bills--is quite a stretch. I cannot afford vasectomies, etc., let alone puppies. The vet charges about the same for a spay or neuter. I planned on making the appointment to have Perky spayed yesterday, but Pirate's aggression toward OldFart concerns me. Should Pirate and OldFart be neutered instead to lessen the chance of a serious battle between them?

Another question: Could Perky, if spayed, be injured through sex with the males?

There are people in this forum with insight. Your thoughts would be appreciated in reaching my decision.
I would neuter both males. That could diminish some aggression on all parts. The female should stay intact. Everyone always elects the female to be spayed...I always put the males on the chopping block first if it has to be done. DM me, I can perhaps help with the cost.
 
What is it with people and thinking/wanting the cervix to be penetrated?
TBH personal experience with my first SO. There was another raspy(?) constriction when we were fully engaged which surprised me the first time I felt it. Obviously I don't expect dogs to be the same as humans, but then humans generally don't have 10 puppies at a time like she did. What anatomy I have managed to learn is quite unspecific.

How old are they? How long have you had them? What is your working situation and how much time are you realistically going to put into them? It's probably possible to train them to be model dog citizens but it will 110% be an uphill battle for many years to come. Unfortunately, I don't think you'll ever be able to trust any of them alone with your cat; it's just not something you can risk.
IDK how old they are. The vet estimated Perky at 2 years by her teeth, but I'm pretty certain she's at least 4. OldFart has gray on his muzzle. Pirate has one eye, masses of nodules on his teats, and a large cyst dangling from his sheath which indicate to me he's not young. I do not expect them to be model dog citizens. OldFart got his bath today and met the cat, who did not run away nor approach. Unlike Perky, OldFart's tail was wagging: there is a chance that they could be friends eventually if all 3 dogs can't get along together.
It's going to be expensive catching them up on visits with the vet, shots, exams, etc, if you haven't done that already.
Especially since Perky had heartworm... There is still the heartworm prevention, shots, and tags I'm trying to shoehorn into my budget.
I was going to suggest this, but the reality is that it's very difficult to find homes for those types of dogs, due to the stigma, laws, etc. Even more so since they're 'damaged' essentially. You don't want to adopt them out to someone who has no idea what they're doing, or worse, wants them for nefarious purposes. There's a reason why 'pit bull' is the most common breed in shelters. If OP can find an experienced handler, or a rescue for pit bulls that isn't full, then that would be the best solution. It's a shame that the best solution is to hand them off to someone else.
Before I took them, the previous caretaker did try to find them homes. The only offers came from people probably active in dogfighting. The shelters basically offered to euthanize them. There is a chance one organization MIGHT take them, but there are so many unwanted and neglected dogs.

I might not have much financially, but I have a heart, a gift for understanding their "language," and they don't scare me.
 
I would adopt them out personally. Neuter and microchip. Unfortunately they have developed past a fantasy of a housepet or sexual companion. Think about trying to change the mind of a 50 year old human who has lived their entire life a certain way.

At that point its better to let them be and hope they dont cause any damage to the world until they eventually move on. Neutering and adopting them to someone who can deal with the breed is the best outcome. Maybe you can keep 1. But 3 "damaged" dogs is going to be overwhelming.
It would be a stretch for any of them to become housepets, but OldFart is the closest. It's even more of a stretch for any of them to become a sexual companion, although Perky would go there (me? I'm too old).

If ever I find someone willing and able to give them a better life, they're gone. But I've survived for decades through far worse circumstances than the present situation, so call it a PITA rather than "overwhelming." :husky_happysmile:
 
Lowest costs = separation in heat over several weeks by unbreakable physical barriers for them, separate walking rounds and so on. Second lowest costs = spaying of the female dog, but comes with risks, as you already assumed. Third lowest costs = neutering of both males. Higher cost but less side risks through tries of copulating even outside of the heat = ovariectomy as example.
Appreciate very much the rest of your thoughts aside from this quoted paragraph...

Their pens are farm fencing (for looks) backed by electric (for teeth), so they don't try to escape. I am not too concerned about strays as they would have to get past the privacy fence surrounding the yard and then jump into the pen past the electric wire along the top. Unfortunately, Perky won't tell me she's in heat and I can't rely on timing separations accurately. That is the main reason they are always separated now except for rare occasions when I am with them.

IF the vet is not willing to do an ovariectomy at a reasonable price (wouldn't it be easier than an ovariohysterectomy?), then spaying sounds scarcely viable as an option. If the decrease in testosterone lessens Pirate's jealousy when they all get together (an unknown), then neutering is worth the expense. And fortunately @BitchPussyislife I have received an offer to cover at least part of the cost. If it comes through, great! If not, I want to be prepared. The 19 February date establishes a March expenditure given the vet's lead time.
 
.. (wouldn't it be easier than an ovariohysterectomy?) ..
Technically a bit more precise, as in an ovariohysterectomy most vets pull the attached tissue regarding uterus and kauterizes i.e. electrosurgically cut and seal (through heat, almost no blood loss) the blood vessels of parts to remove.

Not sure how long the ovariectomy takes compared to a routine ovariohysterectomy, the latter one is able to get finished in around 10 to 12 minutes with one helper, surgical cuts, shaving, sewing comes additionally. That's how long it took the vet I worked with parttimed.

Probably similar time, but due to the less standardized procedure, careful handling (no damage to the uterus or comparable to minimize pain as well), it's probably same or a bit higher in price. Could be a bit lower as well.

Shouldn't be much difference. But remember that this doesn't nullify the risk for tumors. That's simple not possible: as long as living tissue is existent, tumors can grow. And as we don't want taxidermy dogs, we have to live with the risks.
 
Technically a bit more precise, as in an ovariohysterectomy most vets pull the attached tissue regarding uterus and kauterizes i.e. electrosurgically cut and seal (through heat, almost no blood loss) the blood vessels of parts to remove.

Not sure how long the ovariectomy takes compared to a routine ovariohysterectomy, the latter one is able to get finished in around 10 to 12 minutes with one helper, surgical cuts, shaving, sewing comes additionally. That's how long it took the vet I worked with parttimed.
Thank you for the additional information.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed their time and wisdom.

At this point I feel fairly confident that neutering OldFart and Pirate is the best course under the circumstances. I have also decided to leave their enclosure as 2 pens until next year. If OldFart and Pirate tangle once Perky moves in come June, then perhaps OldFart or Pirate will become a housedog. Doubtful, but the possibility remains open at the moment. Otherwise Perky will continue to live her solitary life as she does now.

Should any late-but-great ideas arrive, please feel free to share them here. It's not final until I drop the dogs off at the vet and I will check back from time to time.

Thank you again. :husky_happysmile:
 
First, thanks for taking care of these dogs, that makes you an awesome person.

Desexing males is often tied to reduced libido and its related behaviors, but if they have previous sexual experience they're not as likely to stop mounting other dogs or stop sex-related roaming. It often (but not always) helps with reducing urine marking behavior. There's contradicting results in studies looking at aggression and anxiety. There's definitely no clear cut evidence it would make this situation better.

It's unclear if the interactions between the males get worse because the third dog is a female, or just because adding a 3rd dog in the pen makes Pirate over-excited and more intense in his behaviors (female dog mounting male isn't an invitation to sex). Unfortunately, other then trying it out, there's no way to know what effect desexing any of the dogs will have (make it worse, better, or not change anything).

Any info on how the 2 males interact when the female goes into heat? That often drives males to make poorer life choices...

So to answer your questions, maybe a little late...

Should Pirate and OldFart be neutered instead to lessen the chance of a serious battle between them?
IMO not a predictable enough solution to the problem, especially if one becomes overexcited and attacks the other, and you have an intact female going into heat right across the fence.

Another question: Could Perky, if spayed, be injured through sex with the males?
The answer is yes, but I wouldn't be worried about it , she's less likely to get injusred that way after being spayed then if she's intact. It's uncommon for the cervix to be removed during a regular spay because it's further back and requires a longer abdominal incision. Ovariectomy is less common in North America, but it wouldn't have any effect on the risk of injury vs traditional spay, the uterus just atrophies away regardless. (I should point out that during OSS, then the cervix is removed to prevent the dog from getting stump pyometra since the ovaries are left behind, but that's really not what you should be considered for this specific dog.)

My goals are 1) No Puppies and 2) Best (reasonable and affordable) life for the animals. If any two dogs are happy together but three cause conflict...
Then 1) I would probably put the resources on spaying Perky first. No puppies, no female in heat to drive the males nuts. Then heartworm treatments and neutering the boys later if it's financially possible.
and 2) I would point out that even though they are pack animals, not all dogs get along with eachother all the time. If they're OK in pairs but not in 3's, maybe you can have a 2 dog pen and a 1 dog pen and rotate the loner every day, or if one beccome more suitable for an indoor pet bring that one in (nothing will get rid of their prey drive however).
 
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