Countering effects of neutering: Dog testosterone treatments

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BlueBeard

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The effects of detrimental effects of castration can be reversed? I did not know this!

In another thread we discussed why some dogs can still ejaculate long after their castration. I personally had two "rescue" dogs (one we adopted, the other was from someone whose living arrangements could not longer permit a pet). Bewildered why they not only could knot but actually produce ejaculate years and years after their castration, I did a lot of research into how this could be. Apparently I had quit too soon. I guess I just figured the larger, nonzoosexual population would have no interest. That thread has piqued my interest once again into learning more. I wanted to know if we could restore a dog's normal, healthy sex life with hormone treatment.

That would be a huge relief to those zoos who love their dog, and their dog is everything, except for one frustrating thing: absence of a sex life.

Well, how narrow-minded and uniformed I've been!!! First, that's HARDLY the main concern for those with castrated animals. Castration poses an array of physical and mental health risks to the animal.

One tool in preventing, treating or even reversing these effects is hormone treatment. Here's just one site of the ones I'm strumming through right now.

https://healthyandhappydog.com/countering-the-effects-of-neuter/

What I'm wondering now is, in addition to reversing joint-related detriments like dysplasia, wouldn't these treatments also tend to improve a dog's sexual capabilities? Having no testicles, the dog would be sterile of course, but all of the other biological equipment is still intact and functional. In fact, the point of that other thread is that even without treatment, some few dogs still can and do get sustained erections, knot and ejaculate (surprises the heck out of people who, like I once did, mistakenly thought "cum" came from the nuts).

It certainly works for many castrated human males. Why not dogs?

How many frustrated dog zoos would like to know this, too? -- First you want it just for the health of the poor dog, of course. But... maybe... it can restore its sex life to normal, healthy levels, too?

(I don't know. I'm just now learning about this myself)
 
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Dont fix something that isnt broken - It will need more fixing after to get it work properly again or maybe you cant repair it at all.
 
BlueBeard said:
The effects of castration can be reversed? I did not know this!

In another thread we discussed why some dogs can still ejaculate long after their castration. I personally had two "rescue" dogs (one we adopted, the other was from someone whose living arrangements could not longer permit a pet). Bewildered why they not only could knot but actually produce ejaculate years and years after their castration, I did a lot of research into how this could be. Apparently I had quit too soon. I guess I just figured the larger, nonzoosexual population would have no interest. That thread has piqued my interest once again into learning more. I wanted to know if we could restore a dog's normal, healthy sex life with hormone treatment.

That would be a huge relief to those zoos who love their dog, and their dog is everything, except for one frustrating thing: absence of a sex life.

Well, how narrow-minded and uniformed I've been!!! First, that's HARDLY the main concern for those with castrated animals. Castration poses an array of physical and mental health risks to the animal.

One tool in preventing, treating or even reversing these effects is hormone treatment. Here's just one site of the ones I'm strumming through right now.

https://healthyandhappydog.com/countering-the-effects-of-neuter/

What I'm wondering now is, in addition to reversing osteopathic detriments like dysplasia, wouldn't these treatments also tend to improve a dog's sexual capabilities. Having no testicles, the dog would be sterile of course, but all of the other biological equipment is still intact and functional. In fact, the point of that other thread is that even without treatment, some few dogs still can and do get sustained erections, knot and ejaculate (surprises the heck out of people who, like I once did, mistakenly thought "cum" came from the nuts).

It certainly works for many castrated human males. Why not dogs?

How many frustrated dog zoos would like to know this, too? -- First you want it just for the health of the poor dog, of course. But... maybe... it can restore its sex life to normal, healthy levels, too?

(I don't know. I'm just now learning about this myself)
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Here is a passage from the link for those who might find the topic interesting -- just how unhealthy castration can be, and why in some cases it is imperative to treat it:

Our internal medicine specialist was unwilling to give Billy testosterone even though we documented a complete absence of testosterone. Our primary care veterinarian was kind enough to help us, but it was not without reservations. He feared Billy would become aggressive after receiving testosterone.

It is difficult to explain why the veterinary community continues to treat testosterone as a hormone only important to reproduction, and beyond that function, a hormone that creates only problems for the male dog. It is no exaggeration to say that in modern medicine and endocrinology testosterone is no longer a marginal hormone. Neither is it a lifestyle hormone for those men seeking eternal youth. Its deficiency leads to a serious deterioration of the health of men. This deterioration is rooted in the metabolic syndrome and its sequelae: diabetes mellitus type 2, atherosclerotic disease, osteoporosis and sarcopenia. All of these conditions strongly limit physical independence in old age and accelerate morbidity and mortality.128

It is this fundamental misconception on the part of the veterinary community (that sex hormones are only relevant to reproduction) which initially allowed spay/neuter to be institutionalized as the preferred means of canine population control. Spay/neuter persists today because veterinary professionals continue to ignore the research that recognizes the breadth of the influence sex hormones have over entire body systems independent of reproduction.

To further confirm the veterinary community’s misconceptions about testosterone, we found that testosterone did not make Billy more aggressive. In fact, testosterone had the opposite effect – it made Billy much less fearful. Once you understand the workings of the endocrine system in response to stress (please see the “The Stress Response System” page on this website), and how the brain is damaged by neuter, it is logical that for dogs who suffer from leash aggression, or fear aggression (see the Behavioral Effects of Neuter), testosterone supplementation can make them less aggressive.
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Shabumi said:
I know a woman that has great penetrate sex with castrated stallions.
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Nice. But... really not relevant to this thread. Topic here is reversing negative effects of castration and also, perhaps, the possible restoration of normal, healthy sex life in a dog through hormone therapy.
 
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BlueBeard said:
healthyandhappydog.com

Countering the Effects of Neuter

If your dog has already been neutered, there are some things you can do to help him live the healthiest and happiest life possible. The key to keeping your dog healthy is to assess and confirm the …
healthyandhappydog.com healthyandhappydog.com
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That was a really interesting and insightful perspective! The whole hormonal imbalance issue is something I have suspected all along when I read about why neutered dogs get more anxiety and a heightened sense of fear/nervousness.

I would never recommend neutering male dogs for any reason unless there is a severe problem with the testicles itself or a severe issue with the prostate. Behavioural problem are almost always due to previous learning and life experiences, occasionally genetic.

Gigelina said:
Dont fix something that isnt broken
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Gigelina you nailed it on the right spot.

Hormonal treatments tend to be rather expensive and tedious. Many veterinary physicians do not routinely work with supplementing sex hormones on a regular basis. Because most veterinarians don't even know what effects(beneficial or adverse) the hormones might bring in already desexed dogs.

From an educated guess, I know you have to play around with dosages frequently and have regular blood testing to measure the level of supplemented sex hormones in their bloodstream. Of course, in theory, there will eventually be a systemic balance of all physiological hormones that work hand-in-hand with a certain dosage of supplemental hormones at one point, but to achieve that stage, I am uncertain how much time and effort we need to put into the whole therapy.
From a zoo perspective, I suspect that testosterone replacement will eventually get the male reproductive system working again ie male dogs will start to produce prostatic fluid, their erects cocks no longer dry and they might regain some libido, but they obviously cannot produce any sperm. I I myself would be very interested to see the effects of external sources of testosterone on a neutered dog!

I personally, will be keen to try hormonal supplementation/replacement therapy on my K9 patients to see if that helps with anxiety and fear-based behavioural issues too. Anything to help our K9 companions and lovers! :gsd_happysmile:
 
Wife and I had a lengthy discussion of this topic yesterday -- and NOT so much about the restoration of libido but what we've seen. Lights went off in our heads here. Our rescue pup (the lab/coonhound mix) by contractual agreement was neutered by castration at six months. I felt like crap for doing it but, it was the deal. That little guy was meant to have a home with us. And this was a part of the deal we didn't know until we went to pick him up.

No matter. We weren't "shopping for a sex partner." We were giving a dog a home, expanding our domestic pack. *IF* he was sexually interested in either or both of us when he matured, cool beans! But it wasn't ever the goal/purpose.

When we were notified of him, we both instantly fell for him. Such a unique and cute little booger! Sweet little dog. After a little bit of back and forth with the rescue group, we were chosen as his most ideal "forever home." I drove to get him (wife was away at the time and couldn't come along). And that's when I was surprised by the contract and penalty if we didn't follow through. Should have expected it. But we're such a rural area, just small towns here and there, didn't expect "big town" paperwork and fine print. It still took me by surprise and I followed through, breaking the news over the phone to my wife as I drove home. We didn't like it but... we loved the dog. Oh well.

Now that we've read this stuff about castration and its *other* consequences, we've been able to put 2 and 2 together. Makes our guts sink as we see the timeline. He has become increasingly filled with anxiety, creating behavioral concerns. Not just the backing away and hiding stuff (which most visitors think is hilariously cute) but the barking and pacing and "grumbling" stuff. We haven't been able to figure out what's been happening to him, thinking he's got some psychology problems we might not be able to overcome. He's not aggressive, we reassure people. Just the opposite. He's scared of every little thing.

We had never considered the consequences of a male dog losing 95% of its testosterone production. Just never occurred to us to question it because, this is just what's done, you know. No one we know of has ever talked about these other things. And so we both went "holy shit!" when we realized it was prior to the surgery that he was a completely different dog, confidence-wise. He was interested in "new" things, new people. He was calm or playful when he encountered them.

Today? He constantly paces, "grumbling," then barking and grumbling, then hides -- behind a recliner or the couch. He won't come out. We are CONSTANTLY soft-talking him down, reassuring him he's okay, there's no danger.

To learn what we thought of as just a simple snip-snip probably contributed to most if not all of this change in behavior.... feel like crap.

And to find out that it may be manageable, that hormones may help at least to turn this around? -- Relief.

Main thing we agreed on, though, was to work with the vet. There are formulas on the market people can just buy and experiment with themselves. We have the same concern now that we've read vets would have. And that's that the *other* goal of castration (other than avoid unwanted reproduction) is reducing the potential for "aggressive" behavior. Giving a dog testosterone, they worry, would then open the doors for aggressive behavior.

That's what I liked hearing most from the link above. That "fearlessness" is mistaken for aggression, or maybe the relationship between the two is not necessarily correlative.

I want my fearless little dog back, my bold, inquisitive, curious, daring, "willing to put his nose out there" little mutt. Not this cringing thing he's become.

But I don't want to "experiment on him." Go the route of Jekyll and Hyde.

We're going to talk to the vet tomorrow. Ask how familiar with this consequence she is and if she'd be willing to work out getting his testosterone levels back up to a more normal level. Our goals are to

  • See if testosterone treatment brings back his confidence and calm demeanor
  • Mitigate the potential for bone/joint problems that lack of testosterone contribute to
  • Keeps his musculature "masculine" (for a male dog)
There are a couple other things but... these are the primary health concerns.

I have no idea whatsoever is hormone therapy affects his sexual inclinations or capabilities. I'd read, as well, that not all testosterone is "the same." Males of any species react most optimally to the testosterone produced from their own testicles. Period. All else is to lesser degrees. But the health part -- psychological/behavioral, bone and muscle and other organ health -- hormone therapy is much better at treating those.

And that's what we're after at this point. Undoing the damage that castration has done to him overall.

We'll post updates as we find out. But count on this: We're not going DIY with this with stuff you can buy retail online or off the shelf. Even if our doctor doesn't buy into hormone therapy, or would be it isn't feasible financially.

It ain't for us at this point at all. It's for the dog.
 
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Oh, and just to reassure readers -- yes, I'm mindful of "single cause fallacy." In truth, there might be a number of contributing factors behind my dog's fear-induced aggression. It's just that I never knew castration was one of them, you know. Didn't realize that something people generally believe prevents aggression or reduces it actually exacerbates it.

If hormone therapy isn't an option, there are plenty of behavior mod options to keep working on (which we were doing already).

Okay. Time to talk to the vet.... (Wait one)
 
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Fairly thorough consultation with the vet.

She pooh-poohed the study, saying nope -- she's never heard that castration has been linked to any of that. And she would not recommend administering any of the retail products for "dog steroids" or "dog testosterone."

Right away she asked, though: "Has YOUR behavior changed?" She said vets are reporting changes in animal behavior the past few months (due to stay at home orders) because people are
  • Home more to notice behaviors that may have been present all along
  • Stressing out themselves, and it's altering the dog's own sense of "normalcy," passing it on to their pets. Have stress levels increased in your home? And if you're at home more, are you spending more quality time with dog or are you seen by them as present but ignoring them?
In our case, no, we don't think so. In fact, he's been so spoiled with attention and being included, being right at our side all day, one of "the pack," that we think it will be hell on him if we both return to working outside the home. (He's curled up at my feet as I type this, softly snoring).

Although the vet steered widely clear of hormone treatment as a remedy, she did say we could possibly think of trying pheromones for the anxiety and fearful moments. Used more for cats, or that's where it began. Just "mist 'em" when they stress, calms them down. It's used sometimes for pets traveling by airplane. They just mist them through their crates.

Also said to Google for calming music for dogs. She gave an example of a person with a neighbor who had a high-stress dog. So she put an MP3 player in her window, played it softly. The person said it did the trick, worked wonders.

About vasectomy -- she was interested in that. Had never had a request for that. While she had no problems with it, and it would seem to be a valid option, she cautioned two things, just off the top of her head, pondering it:
  1. Documentation. You'd almost need to have it formally certified, she would think, so you could have documentation on hand for situations that might arise challenging that you have no proof the dog was neutered (didn't give examples, but I'm guessing... certain habitations? Travel maybe? Or someone accusing your dog of fathering unwanted pups?
  2. Vasectomies can sometimes fail. (I did not know that, never having been interested in them. Looked it up and, for humans, the failure rate at most is 1% or less (one source said "1:1000," or 0.1%). But there are actually a few reasons. One of them, it grows back??? ("recanalization"). Another was that the vet simply "missed," cutting the same tube twice. And a third was rarest of all: a third tube, not just two. The vet missed it, not expecting three.
Welp. Them's the answers I got. And she said keep doing what we're doing, because it's the most sensible way: Behavior modification. Work with the dog.

As I said, I'm in a very rural area. Sparsely populated, mostly have just little ag vet setups that have small pet services on the side. I've been with this vet, however, since 1984 and really like them and how they do things. I've moved a couple times, but it's worth it to travel to them. Long relationship with them. She does the pets, mostly, while her husband (also a vet) primarily concentrates on horses, cattle and pigs, on-site work. But they both swap as needed and help each other out, of course.

So question: Any of you who are in more urban settings... Any of *your* vets offering hormone therapy for dogs? Any of them that would take the other view? Or do you yourselves have male dogs that have received testosterone treatments?
 
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We have almost never provided hormonal/testosterone replacement therapy in our clinic. There are very little clinical research in literature looking at treatment protocols and effects of administering exogenous testosterone, and many veterinarians are just not familiar with it.

The only gonadal hormonal therapy we do is temporary chemical castration (Suprelorin implants) which essential stops the dog's body from producing testosterone for 6-12mths, depending on the concentration of the implant. We also sometimes give progesterone supplementation for pregnant bitches or to delay bitches from entering the oestrus cycle. We also occasionally put bitches on the Suprelorin implant to induce them into season.

Your vet talked about pheromones. She is likely referring to a Dog Appeasing Pheromone (DAP) in Adaptil. Give it a go, there are already recent research studies looking at it and a few support its benefits. No harm giving it a try for anxiety. You can also try Bach flower essences, lavender oil, GABA, to name a few examples of natural remedies for calming effects and anti-anxiety therapy.
 
1000extra said:
We have almost never provided hormonal/testosterone replacement therapy in our clinic. There are very little clinical research in literature looking at treatment protocols and effects of administering exogenous testosterone, and many veterinarians are just not familiar with it.

The only gonadal hormonal therapy we do is temporary chemical castration (Suprelorin implants) which essential stops the dog's body from producing testosterone for 6-12mths, depending on the concentration of the implant. We also sometimes give progesterone supplementation for pregnant bitches or to delay bitches from entering the oestrus cycle. We also occasionally put bitches on the Suprelorin implant to induce them into season.

Your vet talked about pheromones. She is likely referring to a Dog Appeasing Pheromone (DAP) in Adaptil. Give it a go, there are already recent research studies looking at it and a few support its benefits. No harm giving it a try for anxiety. You can also try Bach flower essences, lavender oil, GABA, to name a few examples of natural remedies for calming effects and anti-anxiety therapy.
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Thanks!
 
BlueBeard said:
Fairly thorough consultation with the vet.

She pooh-poohed the study, saying nope -- she's never heard that castration has been linked to any of that. And she would not recommend administering any of the retail products for "dog steroids" or "dog testosterone."
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Many vets are highly conservative in their views having qualified decades ago and/or having stuck with the "tried and trusted" over the years. Unfortunately they'll also very rarely see the animals they're treating in a "normal" environment.

If they point-blank refuse the evidence of large scale behavioral studies (leaving a bundle of printed paper behind for reading is not infrequent here) plus the lived experience narrated by the owner in question, it may be required to find another vet who will. But rolling back from that, for now...

It's 13 years since Laura Sanborn's review on disease related neuter/spay issues was published and that's still barely registered with the majority of vets I've encountered in recent years.
Studies relating to behavioral issues, e.g. McGreevy, et al are going to take a long time to filter through unless behaviorists, trainers, etc., start to work better hand-in-hand with vets because otherwise the latter will probably only continue to react to demonstrably extreme cases, and even then in a generally knee-jerk manner, using "tried and trusted" methods or, sometimes, solutions being pushed for financial reasons. (IMHO, DAP has had a definite "sales push" in recent years and almost seems to be thrown around as a behavioral "cure all" in situations far removed from its natural puppy context - "just try it and see if it works" multiplies out quite nicely in $$ terms... money which could've been spent obtaining an assessment from a professional dog trainer, for example).
 
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I'm not really sure what to make of this, legitimate or money making scam? I like the premise but something about it just doesn't sit right with me :unsure:

https://www.dogosterone.com/

Either way, at least one vet in the USA is claiming good success with testosterone replacement for castrated dogs...
 
Ever hear about vasectomies for animals? Your animal will be certified sterile by a vet, thereby fulfilling your contractual obligations. If owners were given a choice between castration and vasectomies, most would choose the former for the hip dysplasia and obesity risk alone.

Check out this society, theres a vet that does it in almost every state and province:

Veterinarian Directory - Parsemus Foundation

PROVIDERS OF ALTERNATIVES TO TRADITIONAL SPAY/NEUTER This directory is provided as a service to individuals seeking a veterinarian willing to perform procedures beyond surgical spay or neuter. Veterinarians are added at their request, and Parsemus Foundation does not endorse any veterinarian. We...
www.parsemus.org www.parsemus.org

I had my boy done. Cost more than a castration, but the recovery time and pain/discomfort was nothing compared to the alternative. And the breeder was perfectly fine with it, in fact he was pleasantly surprised and promised to look into it himself.
 
Yrsyrs said:
Ever hear about vasectomies for animals?
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Must have. Since I wrote facts about it in post #11, this very thread. Nice bold blue subhead and all.

But... the points you repeated bore repeating. AND -- great to hear from someone who's found a vet that would perform it. That's a great, positive contribution that gives hope to others. Cool!
 
BlueBeard said:
Fairly thorough consultation with the vet.

She pooh-poohed the study, saying nope -- she's never heard that castration has been linked to any of that. And she would not recommend administering any of the retail products for "dog steroids" or "dog testosterone."

  1. Vasectomies can sometimes fail. (I did not know that, never having been interested in them. Looked it up and, for humans, the failure rate at most is 1% or less (one source said "1:1000," or 0.1%). But there are actually a few reasons. One of them, it grows back??? ("recanalization"). Another was that the vet simply "missed," cutting the same tube twice. And a third was rarest of all: a third tube, not just two. The vet missed it, not expecting three.
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I'm starting to feel like vets keep mutilating dogs to make money... not just of the procedure itself but the plethora of related health problems as well. This might get even worse in the future since some big publicly traded companies are entering the vet business. :-(

On the failing Vasectomy part I remember it being heavily dependent on the chosen procedure. As far as I know the currently recommend (Irreversible) procedure for pets involves removing a part of the vas deferens so there is virtually no chance of it growing back together... that sayed there is always a chance that the procedure was performed incorrectly ( or not at all ) and I doubt there are many vets that do a followup inspection to test if sterility was actually achieved.
 
We got our poodle fixed when I was ten to make him calm down. After he was neutered he tried to hump everything. He was worse than before.
 
I hope I'm not intruding here, but I'm actually hoping to learn more about the effects of neutering, myself. I've heard loads of potential "health benefits" and "behavioral benefits" but I know that most resources will likely be biased in terms of this, and I really wasn't sure where to start. Just since the small amount of time I've been on this site I've learned a lot, such as how males can have totally normal temperament and still be easily housebroken.I was always told otherwise about in-tact male dogs, but it's unlikely my information ever came from anyone who knew what they were talking about. I'd love to learn more (hoping to have a male dog partner in the future, so it's good to be educated about such things!)

If you or anyone else has any links to non-biased, scientifically backed information regarding the effects of neutering, positive or negative, or the benefits and/or risks to not neutering, I would absolutely love to give it a read if you're willing to share!
Edit: This applies to any relevant information about vasectomies as well! I'd love to read up as much as I can about all of this!
 
Good thread, i actually had a veterinarian become quite pushy with "fixing" my dog. I asked why and they couldn't state any factual information to how it would benefit him. At the time i was aware of a few studies and statistics that had been done, but nothing like some of the information in this thread. I wanted to keep him intact for obvious reasons and also for his health. I did not enjoy the stigma that came with it though. Almost as if i was an irresponsible owner for not "fixing my dog". Just getting close to a year old and hasn't diplayed any signs of health issues, behavioral issues towards same species and human. You can even see the difference in between him and other dogs who have been "fixed" with his muscle development. Some of this information would be nice to cite to the wack jobs thinking they are doing a service by removing their dogs balls. I think it's sick and i will never be "fixing" any of my companions.
 
rex64 said:
If you or anyone else has any links to non-biased, scientifically backed information regarding the effects of neutering, positive or negative, or the benefits and/or risks to not neutering, I would absolutely love to give it a read if you're willing to share!
Edit: This applies to any relevant information about vasectomies as well! I'd love to read up as much as I can about all of this!
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I recomend reading the papers themselves. They usually are pretty understandable but not without bias... IMO a good place to start is "Desexing Dogs: A Review of the Current Literature" ( mdpi.com/2076-2615/9/12/1086/htm ) not a Study but a literature review summarizing the current state of research.
 
kuchen said:
I recomend reading the papers themselves. They usually are pretty understandable but not without bias... IMO a good place to start is "Desexing Dogs: A Review of the Current Literature" ( mdpi.com/2076-2615/9/12/1086/htm ) not a Study but a literature review summarizing the current state of research.
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Thank you! I'll definitely look into that then
 
I find it very strange that it Is considered normal to castrate a dog - and wow, we can give him testosterone so he is a male dog again.
Nobody asks the question, why castrate him in the first place ?
 
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