Confusing/Conflicting Info on Spay/Neuter

[alexagryphon]

So a basic search online of information for spay/neuter results in conflicting opinions/information on the subject, re: cancer rates, behaviour changes, health info, and even the exact procedure used (it seems there are different methods for guaranteeing sterility via injection vs. removing testes/ovaries/certain parts of the reproductive organs).

So, my question is, (and I know there is at least one vet on the board here, and there are probably others)...

What are the various methods of spaying/neutering/guaranteeing sterility and what are the upsides/downsides/querks inherent to each?

 

[Gigelina]

its conflicting inside your head only if you are an american
rest of the world believe in real and not made up scientific facts

 

[SamSmith]

its conflicting inside your head only if you are an american
rest of the world believe in real and not made up scientific facts

I love when people bash Americans for being dicks/ass-holes/ignorant/bigots and then make statements like this. Yup, 327 million people live in the US and not one believes in real scientific facts....

To actually be actually helpful... I am a bit old school in my ways and always do the removal of testes/ovaries. Yes there are mixed opinions on it but it is like everything else, choose what you feel is best and go from there. Some people think sterolization in any form is a crime against animals, I do not. I also grew up on a farm with lots of cows and kittens and if we did not do anything it would have gotten out of hand quickly.

Hope other people weigh in, and do so in a helpful way!

 

[Gigelina]

yea that american allright - loud mouthed and goes sideways or retard if there is any criticism

you think this is stupid? - how about research non US internet sources about spay/neuter before posting

 

[SamSmith]

yea that american allright - loud mouthed and goes sideways or retard if there is any criticism

you think this is stupid? - how about research non US internet sources about spay/neuter before posting

I do not think spay/neutering is stupid, I think you are stupid for assuming Americans on the whole are any dumber than the rest of the world. An idiot is an idiot is an idiot, and by any other name they are still an idiot. A rose smells no different in (where ever the fuck you are from) than it does here, and you sure have proven that an idiot sounds the same regardless as well.

I support spaying and neutering. My mother was a vet tech for years. I have raised more animals than most. Agree with it or disagree, I openly said I do not care, I just gave my personal opinion in hopes it would help Mr. @Alexagraphon form a well rounded opinion utilizing it along with other peoples comments.

 

[Gigelina]

No americans are by no means dumb or idiot by default. Just please stop filling in the stereotypes on this forum.

 

[Gigelina]

The perfect thing to post here is that they are passing federal laws aganist zoophilia and no one in the whole 327 million people country opposes - https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/23/politics/house-passes-pact-act-trnd/index.html
In civilized world people would argue about the facts, but no .. The meat industry keeps doing their thing and any sexual with different species are denied and heavily punished.

 

[SamSmith]

No americans are dumb or idiot by default. Just please stop filling in the stereotypes on this forum.

So by using Proof by Contradiction (I would say Google it if you dont know what that is, but that is an American company so best not use it), you are an idiot by choice? Which is worse, and idiot by birth or and idiot by choice?

No worries, I wont reply again, just get tired of people bashing America for no reason at all.

Have a lovely day Gigelina, and I hope you post actually helpful things in the future!

 

[Gigelina]

So by using Proof by Contradiction (I would say Google it if you dont know what that is, but that is an American company so best not use it), you are an idiot by choice? Which is worse, and idiot by birth or and idiot by choice?

No worries, I wont reply again, just get tired of people bashing America for no reason at all.

Have a lovely day Gigelina, and I hope you post actually helpful things in the future!

how about not using google because they only make you see what they want you to see

 

[SamSmith]

how about not using google because they only make you see what they want you to see

You must have missed the last line, sorry, I can post it, lots going on and all....

Have a lovely day Gigelina, and I hope you post actually helpful things in the future!

 

[Gigelina]

i cannot help you for abandoning the discussion sorry

 

[shrimpsoda]

It’s all up to you, really. With the right training and handling, anyone can have an intact dog with good manners and unwanted litters. Some dogs are more stubborn than others, though. I didn’t neuter my chihuahua and he still marks inside the house. I’ve tried my parents’ old fashioned training (which isn’t acceptable to trainers these days), positive reinforcement, and kennel training. Nothing worked. And he will mark in other people’s houses. I always feel so embarrassed... I think it’s just his personality. Every dog is different.

Keep in mind that cancer risks and other health risks are just a part of life. I could get breast cancer one day, the chance is probably high, but thankfully my parents didn’t cut off my breasts at puberty.

 

[alexagryphon]

Keep in mind that cancer risks and other health risks are just a part of life. I could get breast cancer one day, the chance is probably high, but thankfully my parents didn’t cut off my breasts at puberty.

That's some of the confusing part of the issue. Some sources say cancer is a higher risk if you DO spay/neuter, others say it's a higher risk if you DON'T... And that the risk varies depending on what stage of the dog's life the procedure is done at. So.... trolling and national loyalties aside, I was hoping to get some accurate info, possibly from owners, possibly from vets.

Thank you, though, shrimpsoda, for your advice. It's always good to hear from someone who has practical experience.

 

[shrimpsoda]

I haven’t had a dog come down with cancer (yet). I do think some breeds are more prone to certain health risks than others. I firmly believe bigger dogs need their hormones for proper bone and muscle growth. I think a vasectomy is an even-steven alternative. Dog can keep his hormones but can’t procreate.

There’s a similar procedure for females, but I forget what it’s called.

 

[alexagryphon]

There’s a similar procedure for females, but I forget what it’s called.

Tubal ligation/ligature, something like that I believe. You get your tubes tied... I didn't know if they did those on canines.

 

[DogLovinVixen]

I'm genuinely irritated that people think all Americans are stupid and don't believe in science. Not all of us are like that, thank you.

Personally, as there's enough animal companions in the world who are in need of homes, I'm down for spaying and neutering. Plus, even though certain breeds are more likely to have more issues than others from not being fixed, it still should be done, but only after they're a year old. It honestly does help them a lot, as I've seen one dog go from being an absolute aggressive terror for his owners, to mellow and content.

Spaying and Neutering should be done, period, unless you're a literal licensed dog breeder (and not a backyard breeder, which I've also encountered, and absolutely dislike. This doesn't include accidental breeding, because things can happen).

 

[Wolfy]

While there is some conflicting opinions, it's becoming more well known that if you do spay/neuter a dog, it's best not to do it when they are a puppy. For females, after their first heat is good, ideally after their second. And for males, about 1.5-2 years. Basically by the time the dog has gone through puberty is the healthiest time. By doing this, you allow the dog's body to progress through puberty with the proper hormones.

For females, there is a genuine risk of an intact female getting pyometra, which is an infection in the lining of the uterus, usually after the dog's final heat cycle in old age. This is believed to be caused by many years of heat cycles without the dog becoming pregnant. I haven't ever found a solid reference on the chances of it happening, but most medical professionals say it isn't a matter of if, it's when.

For males, the risks are less. Yes, testicular cancer is a risk, but most of the time the tumor is benign and is usually found early, as it is usually easy to see a lump in that area. You will likely have issues with your dog at places like a dog park or a kennel, which may not allow unaltered dogs in due to fear of aggression, even though studies have shown that intact dogs don't have a change in aggression vs altered dogs. It's usually the altered dogs that go after the unaltered ones. But good luck telling someone that after a fight has broken out, they will still want to blame your dog.

For males, there is also prostatitis, which is an infection of the prostate. While not common, it can be a bit tougher to diagnose.

You can also have a female dog's uterus removed, but leave the ovaries intact. This would allow the hormone producing organs intact, but the dog can no longer get pregnant, and a male dog can get a vasectomy, producing the same result.

At the end of the day there are a relatively even amount of risks in both altering and not altering a dog, but there is a real change in society's beliefs in the matter depending on where you are in the world. It is common belief in american society that a dog must be "fixed", meanwhile there are nations in Europe where the practice is outlawed, except for medical reasons.

Of course it is easier for people to not know you have an intact female vs a male, just keep the female dog away from other dogs/people in her heat cycle, and no one will know. Obviously harder for an intact male. If you have an intact male, maybe stay away from dog parks and be sure you have a trusted friend/relative that could board the dog instead of bringing it to a kennel.

 

[alexagryphon]

Thank you. This actually helps a lot.

 

[c9a]

Learn about source evaluation. Who says what, and what may their reasons be for saying so?

 

[1000extra]

While there is some conflicting opinions, it's becoming more well known that if you do spay/neuter a dog, it's best not to do it when they are a puppy. For females, after their first heat is good, ideally after their second. And for males, about 1.5-2 years. Basically by the time the dog has gone through puberty is the healthiest time. By doing this, you allow the dog's body to progress through puberty with the proper hormones.

For females, there is a genuine risk of an intact female getting pyometra, which is an infection in the lining of the uterus, usually after the dog's final heat cycle in old age. This is believed to be caused by many years of heat cycles without the dog becoming pregnant. I haven't ever found a solid reference on the chances of it happening, but most medical professionals say it isn't a matter of if, it's when.

For males, the risks are less. Yes, testicular cancer is a risk, but most of the time the tumor is benign and is usually found early, as it is usually easy to see a lump in that area. You will likely have issues with your dog at places like a dog park or a kennel, which may not allow unaltered dogs in due to fear of aggression, even though studies have shown that intact dogs don't have a change in aggression vs altered dogs. It's usually the altered dogs that go after the unaltered ones. But good luck telling someone that after a fight has broken out, they will still want to blame your dog.

For males, there is also prostatitis, which is an infection of the prostate. While not common, it can be a bit tougher to diagnose.

You can also have a female dog's uterus removed, but leave the ovaries intact. This would allow the hormone producing organs intact, but the dog can no longer get pregnant, and a male dog can get a vasectomy, producing the same result.

At the end of the day there are a relatively even amount of risks in both altering and not altering a dog, but there is a real change in society's beliefs in the matter depending on where you are in the world. It is common belief in american society that a dog must be "fixed", meanwhile there are nations in Europe where the practice is outlawed, except for medical reasons.

Of course it is easier for people to not know you have an intact female vs a male, just keep the female dog away from other dogs/people in her heat cycle, and no one will know. Obviously harder for an intact male. If you have an intact male, maybe stay away from dog parks and be sure you have a trusted friend/relative that could board the dog instead of bringing it to a kennel.

Absolutely agree with Wolfy on the current research.

There are increasing number of peer-reviewed research showing that desexing at a young age can be linked to increased risk of some metabolic disorders, urinary incontinence in females, joint and bone problems, increasing risk of certain cancers, increasing risk of anxiety related behavioural issues due to the lack/imbalance of sexual hormones.

You can try and find a vet that is willing to perform a hysterectomy (Ovary sparing spay) or vasectomy for males. That way you can still preserve the hormonal balance in the body and still sterilise your pet. However, you still run the risk of ovarian and mammary tumours in older bitches, prostate and testicular issues in older males.

I agree that it is still your personally responsibility to manage your own pets at home and outside since you are the owner of the dog. No one else is gonna care for your pet the same as you would. It is common sense that intact bitches in-season must be kept away from intact male dogs or other bitches to prevent fights or pregnancies.

 

[hrothgar2011]

On the topic of neutering and sexuality, does that affect the male dog. I've had my leg humped by neuter dogs, but since I've not had sex, or been a participant in a dog/sex scene... I don't know if the neuter dog's humping is just brief play or can get serious.

As for my anecdotal experience with dogs and cancer... several dogs have died, 2 males nonneutered(died at age 11 both from the same litter and died with in a month of each other, almost like the alarm clock went off), one female(died at 15), spayed, have died from cancer, and not related to the reproductive organs. The female was prone to bladder infections. The 1 neutered male, died of just 'complications' of old age at 15.

So, given that like humans you live till something gets you, it seems cancer is a popular way to go.

 

[ashy]

Spaying and neutering is essential for population control, but if you're a responsible owner the health benefits and drawbacks are kinda a crapshoot. On one hand, without testes and ovaries they can't get infections or cancers in those things, but the risk for other cancers can be higher, incontinence can become an issue, and weight gain can be difficult to fight.
For a zoophile, I think the answer is a clear no spay/neuter. Not for any selfish reason, but because you can give your animal a much higher quality of life than most pets get by being sexual with them.

 

[alexagryphon]

So given this info from all of you guys (THANK YOU btw) I'm definitely leaning towards no neutering, but possible vasectomy/tubal ligation for population control.

Which brings me to my next question... Are there any shelters/organizations here in the US that practice the less invasive/destructive forms of birth control rather than complete removal of testes/ovaries? It would be nice to be able to adopt a companion rather than buy.

 

[UR20Z]

So given this info from all of you guys (THANK YOU btw) I'm definitely leaning towards no neutering, but possible vasectomy/tubal ligation for population control.

Which brings me to my next question... Are there any shelters/organizations here in the US that practice the less invasive/destructive forms of birth control rather than complete removal of testes/ovaries? It would be nice to be able to adopt a companion rather than buy.

Ask most shelters, and they'll tell you straight up: "We'd rather gas 'em and shovel 'em into the crematorium in job lots than let one of them go out the front door sexually operative".

That's without bothering to pay attention to the fact that things like vasectomy and/or tubal ligation are "foreign" concepts to most shelters - Both of them require more resources, skill, and time than the traditional "slit the scrotum open and pull the testicles out, cut the cords using a tool that crushes to stop bleeding" - NEXT! castration or "Open the belly, make three cuts and lift out the entire reproductive tract before folding over the stump of the vagina and stitching it shut" - Assistant, close the belly cut" - NEXT! spay.

Unlike a castration, which can be (and I've seen it) done with nothng more than a scalpel - yes, I mean no anesthesia - and is over in about 20 seconds, a vasectomy requires keeping the dog still long enough (which pretty well mandates SOME fom of anesthetic) to open his scrotum and hunt for the right bits to snip, sort the bits away from other structures that need t be avoided, do the clipping, sealing, etc, no each end of the freshly cut vasa, replace the testicle, and stitch the scrotum closed. Now do it all over again on the other side.

A canine vasectomy isn't particularly complicated, but it *DOES* take significantly longer, a higher skill level in the operator, and must be done under anesthesia, unlike a castration. Likewise, a tubal ligation, rather than a wholesale "rip the entire reproductive system out" requires a lot more "nitpicky" doings. So both tend to cost more, and take longer. Anythign that takes longer or costs more in a shelter environment is anathema.

 

[UR20Z]

Yes, testicular cancer is a risk, but most of the time the tumor is benign and is usually found early

And in any event, the treatment for testicular cancer is - drum roll, please - removal of the testicle!

According to all info I've ever encountered, first off, testicular cancer is rare. When it does happen, it's most often when the dog is on the downhill side of his sexual life (as in, mostly older dogs) and is generallly self-contained as long as it hasn't been let go for ridiculous amounts of time. All other considerations aside, removal of the affected testicle is the treatment, and from what I understand, is pretty much a total cure, since testicular cancer rarely spreads the way other cancers can and do.

Which leaves me in the camp that says "*IF AND WHEN*, and *ONLY* if and when, such a cancer develops, you can cut it off. Until then, leave his balls alone!"

 

[caikgoch]

I have a hard time accepting any information provided by a shelter or "humane" organization. Once upon a time, I went to a major dog show and asked some questions at the booth of a national organization. Specifically, because I live in a region heavy with the "Macho" culture, I asked why they didn't offer a vasectomy option for sterilization. My theory is that a lot of individuals within that culture had told me that they would never own a "useless" dog, so they were simply opting out of the organization's program. A sterile, macho dog might bring them back in. One of the women flew into a rage and called the cops on me. They ended up asking her to "take a break" away from the show but it told me what would happen if that question had been asked in their shelter.

So I fell back on my default policy. I don't do anything to a critter that I wouldn't do to myself.

 

[alexagryphon]

So I fell back on my default policy. I don't do anything to a critter that I wouldn't do to myself.

I actually plan to get a vasectomy myself. It is guaranteed birth control, if I end up with a human female again, which for me is totally possible.

 

[SednaEris]

As one example of a paper on this topic.
Probing the perils of dichotomous binning: how categorizing female dogs as spayed or intact can misinform our assumptions about the lifelong health consequences of ovariohysterectomy (freely available at pubmed)

All previous studies examining gonadal influences on canine longevity relied upon categorizing females as "intact" or "spayed" based on gonadal status at the time of death. Our study of Rottweilers generated a novel result: Keeping ovaries longer was associated with living longer. This result challenged previous assumptions that spayed females live longer.

In short - if you don't take into account that females may be spayed partway through their lives, and assume they were spayed at or before reproductive maturity, your categories should properly be named 'unspayed' and 'spayed at some point throughout their life'.

If you then go on to analyse the bitches by age of spaying, early spaying is not better.

In this study population, there was a three-fold increased likelihood of exceptional longevity (living ≥ 13 yr) associated with the longest duration of ovary exposure. However, categorizing females in this population as spayed or intact yielded the spurious, contradictory assertion that spayed females (presumed to have the least ovary exposure) are more likely to reach exceptional longevity than those that are intact.

Another paper - also openly available:
Breed Variations in the Incidence of Pyometra and Mammary Tumours in Swedish Dogs
This paper analyses the results of 260000 bitches in sweden, and the results.
In general

he proportion of the bitches that developed these diseases at 10 years of age was for pyometra 19%, MTs(Mammary tumor) 13%, and either or both pyometra or MTs 30%.

.
However, there is a WIDE variation between breeds.

There were 20 breeds with a proportion of at least 50% affected by either or both of the two diseases at 10 years of age

Looking in the supplemental data table Supplementary data table, you can see this broken down.
For example, for pyometria, the top three risky breeds are Bernese mountain dog (66%), Great Dane (62%), Rott (61%).
Goldens are at 36%, GSD 31, 'mixed breed' 24%, Husky 14% with greyhound trailing the pack at 11%.
For Mammary tumor, dobermen and irish wolfhound start out the list at 46%, with greyhound at 7% and Husky at 5. (Mixed breed 16%).

The combined risks start out at an eyewatering 73% for Leonbergers, with huskies and greyhounds down at 16%.

So, the benefits of earlier spaying (or ovarectomy) on a greyhound may be nonexistant compared to the health costs, but this is probably not the case for Leonbergers or Wolfhounds.

Noting of course that this is only part of the picture - greyhounds are about twice as likely to need to be put down for breaking something than the above. (Mortality in North American Dogs from 1984 to 2004: An Investigation into Age‐, Size‐, and Breed‐Related Causes of Death)

 

[Lone]

Ask most shelters, and they'll tell you straight up: "We'd rather gas 'em and shovel 'em into the crematorium in job lots than let one of them go out the front door sexually operative".

That's without bothering to pay attention to the fact that things like vasectomy and/or tubal ligation are "foreign" concepts to most shelters - Both of them require more resources, skill, and time than the traditional "slit the scrotum open and pull the testicles out, cut the cords using a tool that crushes to stop bleeding" - NEXT! castration or "Open the belly, make three cuts and lift out the entire reproductive tract before folding over the stump of the vagina and stitching it shut" - Assistant, close the belly cut" - NEXT! spay.

Unlike a castration, which can be (and I've seen it) done with nothng more than a scalpel - yes, I mean no anesthesia - and is over in about 20 seconds, a vasectomy requires keeping the dog still long enough (which pretty well mandates SOME fom of anesthetic) to open his scrotum and hunt for the right bits to snip, sort the bits away from other structures that need t be avoided, do the clipping, sealing, etc, no each end of the freshly cut vasa, replace the testicle, and stitch the scrotum closed. Now do it all over again on the other side.

A canine vasectomy isn't particularly complicated, but it *DOES* take significantly longer, a higher skill level in the operator, and must be done under anesthesia, unlike a castration. Likewise, a tubal ligation, rather than a wholesale "rip the entire reproductive system out" requires a lot more "nitpicky" doings. So both tend to cost more, and take longer. Anythign that takes longer or costs more in a shelter environment is anathema.

So, on a side note after reading this, call me ignorant if you like but a non-intact female is impossible to have sex with correct? I've been looking it up and trying to find some sort article on intact females vs. spayed. I've become even more confused due to the different types of spaying a female can receive in general and curiosity has gotten the better of me.

 

[DLMEM202]

There are a lot of myths relating to health benefits.

Recent research is showing that neutering can increase fear response in dogs. Also neutering early can delay the closure of growth plates.