Zoo Attraction study

[K_9River_rat]

This seemed to be the best place to put this topic. My apologies for the length.

I find it rather odd (sorta but not really) that while there has been a few studies on zoos, every study seems to focus on the human aspect and neglects the non-human side.

When we consider that by far the largest argument against zoos is the ability or lack thereof of an animal to give or deny consent, it seems to me that in this day and age, this would be a rather simple area to study, and could be done without breaking any current laws.

While I know that one study would hardy do anything to change public opinions, I think it would be a start, and step in the right direction, as it would be the beginning of dismantling the argument so frequently used against us.

Being "loud and proud" only raises the level of resistance put forth by the public, and does nothing to assist someone that inadvertently gets caught in that web. Assistance with legal fees also wouldn't do much and for every case, just adds up, whereas a genuine study is a one time cost and remains in place and could be used multiple times without further costs.

Add to that, multiple studies, and again, all focused on the animal side. Several to document the sexual interest an animal can have in a human, several to document consent and their ability to make the choice to not consent.

One thing I have learned from being here, is that there is a large group consensus regarding abuse, and that there's also an even larger group of deviants that come here to share and consume deviant pork, and I know that deeply troubles many of us.

I really believe that the general public is completely blind to the fact that their best asset for combating the deviant side of things is right under their own noses, and they themselves have set things up to make that asset unavailable to them. That asset of course being us.

It would seem that they would rather hold onto their hate and misguided beliefs and miss out on actually making a real difference, rather than actually making that difference.

Anyway, it was just a thought that rolled through my mind, and I was curious what others opinions on the topic might be.

Thanks!

 

[JazzyPaws]

This seemed to be the best place to put this topic. My apologies for the length.

I find it rather odd (sorta but not really) that while there has been a few studies on zoos, every study seems to focus on the human aspect and neglects the non-human side.

I don't find it odd. This world isn't unbiased, even in science. Money talks, and funding a zoo positive study, is social suicide.

When we consider that by far the largest argument against zoos is the ability or lack thereof of an animal to give or deny consent, it seems to me that in this day and age, this would be a rather simple area to study, and could be done without breaking any current laws.

While I know that one study would hardy do anything to change public opinions, I think it would be a start, and step in the right direction, as it would be the beginning of dismantling the argument so frequently used against us.

If we could find a way to have these studies conducted, and paid for, in a way the public can see it as a scientific thing, which in itself is a challenge these days, then we may have a chance to spark the flame of change. The problem above is the main thing.

The issue is until a shift begins, with enough in our corner, no one will try to do these studies, in order to protect themselves and their image. No one wants to be seen supporting "animal fuckers".

We are seen as desperate, unable to find real love, or worse, mentally ill. It wasn't that long ago, just being gay got you the same social shunning.

Being "loud and proud" only raises the level of resistance put forth by the public, and does nothing to assist someone that inadvertently gets caught in that web. Assistance with legal fees also wouldn't do much and for every case, just adds up, whereas a genuine study is a one time cost and remains in place and could be used multiple times without further costs.

Legal fee assistance only works when the defense has a stronger will, and funds to continue, than the objecting party has or is willing to put forth. Eventually one side runs out of patience and either a major hammer drops, or something starts to change.

Being "loud and proud" sure means something different in 2023, than even in the early 2000's. Whenever I hear it I cringe, knowing the type of other crowd that attracts. It wouldn't help us anyway, at this stage, but society as a whole really need to learn about not being obnoxious, while showing pride.

Add to that, multiple studies, and again, all focused on the animal side. Several to document the sexual interest an animal can have in a human, several to document consent and their ability to make the choice to not consent.

We barely needs studies. Behavioral studies have shown dogs can consent to some stuff, and can show rejection. Why this has never been applied to sex is simply society, and archaic beliefs.

One thing I have learned from being here, is that there is a large group consensus regarding abuse, and that there's also an even larger group of deviants that come here to share and consume deviant pork, and I know that deeply troubles many of us.

I really believe that the general public is completely blind to the fact that their best asset for combating the deviant side of things is right under their own noses, and they themselves have set things up to make that asset unavailable to them. That asset of course being us.

Every village has its idiots. Unfortunately, in our case, those idiots are also abusive and degrading. They don't just bring the whole name of zoo's down, they stomp on it, shit on it, and leave it to dry.

Of course the positive side of the community can help alleviate this, as long as the internet exists, they'll always have a home.

It would seem that they would rather hold onto their hate and misguided beliefs and miss out on actually making a real difference, rather than actually making that difference.

It's easier to remain in the status quo, than to change a mind. I believe it'll take generations to make this change happen, and it'll take very tiny steps, up to a point, then one major hammer swing at the end.

Anyway, it was just a thought that rolled through my mind, and I was curious what others opinions on the topic might be.

Thanks!

 

[pes]

When we consider that by far the largest argument against zoos is the ability or lack thereof of an animal to give or deny consent, it seems to me that in this day and age, this would be a rather simple area to study, and could be done without breaking any current laws.

That would imply that someone actually wants to prove animals can consent to sex with humans and validate zoophilia.
Nobody wants to do that. It has horrendous consequences, it breaks the carefully maintained model of humans being above animals.

deviant pork

Sorry, I could not let this slide. That is brilliant.

 

[K_9River_rat]

That would imply that someone actually wants to prove animals can consent to sex with humans and validate zoophilia.
Nobody wants to do that. It has horrendous consequences, it breaks the carefully maintained model of humans being above animals.

Sorry, I could not let this slide. That is brilliant.

I caught it just after I posted.. damn auto correct! But every time I go to edit on the mobile platform, it usually removes all of my line breaks making something impossible to read.

 

[K_9River_rat]

That would imply that someone actually wants to prove animals can consent to sex with humans and validate zoophilia.
Nobody wants to do that. It has horrendous consequences, it breaks the carefully maintained model of humans being above animals.

Sorry, I could not let this slide. That is brilliant.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "nobody", although I'd certainly agree that those who might or would are definitely far and few between.

But there have been those occasional renegades that come along and want to take on something against convention simply because so many others are scared to tread there.

And I also know such a thing would come under fire, with those wanting to point out what they perceive as flaws in the study, or seeing it as biased.

But for every one of those, there is also an opportunity presented to scientifically challenge them.

Again, I by no means think something like this would change anything overnight.

However it would be something to get a toe in the door and start a fire. Once out there, to be contested (which we know it would be!), there would have to be another study done if they wanted any kind of a leg to stand on to contest it in the first place. And of course, that one would have to be biased if what we believe to be true is really true for it to be able to stand in opposition. Further to that, if an opposing study WAS biased, then that again opens the door to point out said bias, and rinse and repeat.

But at least the fight would be amongst scientists and facts instead of just the public and opinions..

 

[K_9River_rat]

Maybe it's cause they're scared that their beliefs just might not be true? It'd be so easy to prove that animals can and do consent.

very likely true. Humans, as a general rule, don't like to be wrong, and will cling to a false idea or principle, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

There was some kind of quote, something to the effect that it's much easier to fool a man than convince him that he's been fooled..

 

[JazzyPaws]

Maybe it's cause they're scared that their beliefs just might not be true? It'd be so easy to prove that animals can and do consent.

It's easy to prove in theory, a bit less in practice, at least for dogs, idk about others. New environments change behaviour, as do new people into the environment. I highly doubt they'd believe video, so I imagine observations would have to be in person, in order to accurately monitor body language.

I'd love to prove consent is a real thing, with animals, I just don't see how we can. I'd love to hear any ideas you have tho, this is just me.

 

[JazzyPaws]

Uhm... in theory someone studying the right field in a university would have to be brave enough to conduct a study with volunteers while guaranteeing total privacy and safety. It's probably not impossible ... but based on the zoo related studies I've seen come out of universities, it's so not likely. They usually have a subtle anti zoo vibe going on when they write about their results. We just need someone really brave with nothing to lose, that's all.

It's not so much the risk, as much as the practicality. I highly doubt my mates would consent to anything physical, if there were even a hint of someone else in the space, so I'm more wondering how we'd get around that obstacle.

As far as risk, i don't know how they'd entice people to participate without some form of immunity, if the studies don't change laws, and to protect until they do.

 

[JazzyPaws]

When I was talking about someone being brave, I was talking about the student or scientist willing to do a study like that at their university. Bringing up a topic like this would probably end up giving someone a reputation that they'd rather not have in their career..... and who knows what else.

oh, well you're definitely right there! gonna need courage all around.

 

[Cali]

I would bet pennies on the dollar that I won't live to see anyone conducting a serious unbiased research on zoos and animal consent. Even in the most liberal Western society where kids are having their genitals cut off and get hormone suppression therapy and all that junk, somehow speaking of animal sexual consent turns you immediately into a pariah/animal rapist and I would even go as far as saying you might get yourself killed too.

 

[JazzyPaws]

I would bet pennies on the dollar that I won't live to see anyone conducting a serious unbiased research on zoos and animal consent. Even in the most liberal Western society where kids are having their genitals cut off and get hormone suppression therapy and all that junk, somehow speaking of animal sexual consent turns you immediately into a pariah/animal rapist and I would even go as far as saying you might get yourself killed too.

Maybe not in our lifetime, but the seeds of change must first be planted. The tree may take generations to grow, but it all starts with a seed.

 

[Cali]

If I lived to see the first seed planted in our society that would be enough to make me slightly optimistic about this subject matter, one can only hope. In the meantime I guess I'll continue living in anonymity, except for the couple of people that know of my way of life and don't judge me, that I'm aware of lol

 

[JazzyPaws]

If I lived to see the first seed planted in our society that would be enough to make me slightly optimistic about this subject matter, one can only hope. In the meantime I guess I'll continue living in anonymity, except for the couple of people that know of my way of life and don't judge me, that I'm aware of lol

It's entirely reasonable to take that stance, in the current world. As many said it's going to take a few really brave people to step into the light. Honestly, if it wasn't such a risk towards my mates, I'd be happy to make that first step. Beyond my loves, I don't really have much to lose.

 

[K_9River_rat]

A good start without even getting into anything sexual could be more cognitive studies.

But I would like to see someone brave enough to venture into the sexual consent topic. Hell, it could start with k9s and k9s, and even horses. They can and will say "no" to their own kind.

But it's entirely possible that some of these may exist already.

It would be funny to have several of these types already on hand backing things up when you put humans into the mix. And it doesn't even have to go to full blown law breaking stuff.. But showing a female flagging to a human.. A male k9 attempting to mount a human..

And while I know it really wouldn't change things in the big picture of the near future, it would be a beginning.

And of course there's going to be those who will call it bullshit or biased, and let them! Because for every time they do, it's another opportunity to go back to the drawing board and redesign the study/experiment to rule out a claim of bias for this reason or that reason.

Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of study is done to stand against the first.. Good.. again, let them. because if what we know to be true is indeed true, then any study that finds it false is biased, and there is a flaw to be found.

This needs to be decided in the lab with facts, not opinions...

They already incarcerate people based on opinions. Facts to stand against those opinions are the only thing I could see that would at least give someone something to stand on while standing in front of the judge.

 

[JazzyPaws]

A good start without even getting into anything sexual could be more cognitive studies.

But I would like to see someone brave enough to venture into the sexual consent topic. Hell, it could start with k9s and k9s, and even horses. They can and will say "no" to their own kind.

But it's entirely possible that some of these may exist already.

It's a well documented fact that, at the very least Wolves, and thus K9 by extension, exhibit choice and consent. A female wolf with only permit males she wants to procreate with, to mate with her. This also shows capacity for consent, because she will actively deny, and even violently, the males she doesn't want. I'm sure there are papers these documentaries have sourced from.

It would be funny to have several of these types already on hand backing things up when you put humans into the mix. And it doesn't even have to go to full blown law breaking stuff.. But showing a female flagging to a human.. A male k9 attempting to mount a human..

There are several people who have lived among wild wolves that could back this up I bet, at least for wolves, and by extension, K9's.

And while I know it really wouldn't change things in the big picture of the near future, it would be a beginning.

And of course there's going to be those who will call it bullshit or biased, and let them! Because for every time they do, it's another opportunity to go back to the drawing board and redesign the study/experiment to rule out a claim of bias for this reason or that reason.

Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of study is done to stand against the first.. Good.. again, let them. because if what we know to be true is indeed true, then any study that finds it false is biased, and there is a flaw to be found.

Yup, conflicting studies push researchers to find the exact truth, and ensure their work is complete, or appended with new info. I'd happily read both sides of the table, should zoo laws ever become a hot topic thing, not like it is now, but in the forefront of study, in the public eye.

And no, in the big picture right now, it wouldn't, but a step is a step right?

This needs to be decided in the lab with facts, not opinions...

They already incarcerate people based on opinions. Facts to stand against those opinions are the only thing I could see that would at least give someone something to stand on while standing in front of the judge.

Yea, we need scientific minds, not keyboard warriors. We also need to ensure that those studied, at least for the purposes of trying to legalize the proper for of zoophilia, where care becomes the forefront, are the zoophiles, not the fetishists.

 

[K_9River_rat]

It's a well documented fact that, at the very least Wolves, and thus K9 by extension, exhibit choice and consent. A female wolf with only permit males she wants to procreate with, to mate with her. This also shows capacity for consent, because she will actively deny, and even violently, the males she doesn't want. I'm sure there are papers these documentaries have sourced from.


There are several people who have lived among wild wolves that could back this up I bet, at least for wolves, and by extension, K9's.


Yup, conflicting studies push researchers to find the exact truth, and ensure their work is complete, or appended with new info. I'd happily read both sides of the table, should zoo laws ever become a hot topic thing, not like it is now, but in the forefront of study, in the public eye.

And no, in the big picture right now, it wouldn't, but a step is a step right?



Yea, we need scientific minds, not keyboard warriors. We also need to ensure that those studied, at least for the purposes of trying to legalize the proper for of zoophilia, where care becomes the forefront, are the zoophiles, not the fetishists.

Exactly.

We've got a fuck ton of sick fucks right here under our noses that are harmful, if not deadly to animals that don't deserve it and can't do a fucking thing with them, other than banning, which does nothing for the animals victimized by their behaviors.

Meanwhile we also occasionally have decent people that would give their life for their mates having their lives turned inside out.

No amount of screaming and being loud will fix any of that and would actually only stand to hurt things because it's opinions vs opinions, and that's a battle we will always lose unless there's some actual factual data to start calling opinions into question and prove they are indeed just opinions and wrong ones to boot.

 

[JazzyPaws]

Exactly.

We've got a fuck ton of sick fucks right here under our noses that are harmful, if not deadly to animals that don't deserve it and can't do a fucking thing with them, other than banning, which does nothing for the animals victimized by their behaviors.

Meanwhile we also occasionally have decent people that would give their life for their mates having their lives turned inside out.

No amount of screaming and being loud will fix any of that and would actually only stand to hurt things because it's opinions vs opinions, and that's a battle we will always lose unless there's some actual factual data to start calling opinions into question and prove they are indeed just opinions and wrong ones to boot.

Yup.

I think what we really need, is the first group. A few zoophiles who begin to open up, and talk about their relationships, in a place where the vile isn't permitted, like a group. This data can be the start of something that ignites someone to want to take it from an antecdotal series of accounts, to a scientific study where these stories are tested in observation.

 

[K_9River_rat]

It's a well documented fact that, at the very least Wolves, and thus K9 by extension, exhibit choice and consent. A female wolf with only permit males she wants to procreate with, to mate with her. This also shows capacity for consent, because she will actively deny, and even violently, the males she doesn't want. I'm sure there are papers these documentaries have sourced from.


There are several people who have lived among wild wolves that could back this up I bet, at least for wolves, and by extension, K9's.


Yup, conflicting studies push researchers to find the exact truth, and ensure their work is complete, or appended with new info. I'd happily read both sides of the table, should zoo laws ever become a hot topic thing, not like it is now, but in the forefront of study, in the public eye.

And no, in the big picture right now, it wouldn't, but a step is a step right?



Yea, we need scientific minds, not keyboard warriors. We also need to ensure that those studied, at least for the purposes of trying to legalize the proper for of zoophilia, where care becomes the forefront, are the zoophiles, not the fetishists.

It would be easy enough to just document wolves and k9s using that same behavior with humans.. While it wouldn't be much, it could be enough to start prying the lid off of that box that nobody wants to touch.

 

[K_9River_rat]

Yup.

I think what we really need, is the first group. A few zoophiles who begin to open up, and talk about their relationships, in a place where the vile isn't permitted, like a group. This data can be the start of something that ignites someone to want to take it from an antecdotal series of accounts, to a scientific study where these stories are tested in observation.

I'm liking you're thinking.. I'm thinking step 2 is using k9s that have zero prior sexual interactions with humans, but with zoos that speak k9 so to speak.. would take longer, I think, as it's been my experience that there's a bit of a courtship in the beginning. But that courtship would be nice to document to compare to the same in k9/k9 relations..

 

[JazzyPaws]

I'm liking you're thinking.. I'm thinking step 2 is using k9s that have zero prior sexual interactions with humans, but with zoos that speak k9 so to speak.. would take longer, I think, as it's been my experience that there's a bit of a courtship in the beginning. But that courtship would be nice to document to compare to the same in k9/k9 relations..

It could also be a study of a zoophile getting a new dog, and observing how that relationship grows. This would also help eliminate questions of conditioning, but particpants would have to remain, in the controlled environment, for up to 3 years, under 24/7 monitoring, which would happen anyway to catch the flagging and behaviours, we try so hard to make people realize are there.

 

[K_9River_rat]

It could also be a study of a zoophile getting a new dog, and observing how that relationship grows. This would also help eliminate questions of conditioning, but particpants would have to remain, in the controlled environment, for up to 3 years, under 24/7 monitoring, which would happen anyway to catch the flagging and behaviours, we try so hard to make people realize are there.

Not just to catch flagging and such, but also to show no "conditioning" or sex "training"

 

[JazzyPaws]

Not just to catch flagging and such, but also to show no "conditioning" or sex "training"

I mention that in the first bit of the sentence Gives coffee

 

[K_9River_rat]

I mention that in the first bit of the sentence Gives coffee

I'm scrolling all over looking for a coffee reference!!

 

[K_9River_rat]

I'm scrolling all over looking for a coffee reference!!

Yes.... yes.. you did mention that.. pardon my ADD brain.. squirrel!!!!!

 

[K_9River_rat]

I would bet pennies on the dollar that I won't live to see anyone conducting a serious unbiased research on zoos and animal consent. Even in the most liberal Western society where kids are having their genitals cut off and get hormone suppression therapy and all that junk, somehow speaking of animal sexual consent turns you immediately into a pariah/animal rapist and I would even go as far as saying you might get yourself killed too.

It would definitely attract haters!

You only have to read some of the comments made about the author of Uniquely Dangerous to see that..

But I have to applaud her. She took on the status quo.. I'm sure she knew the risks, but the fact that she did and some others that have written some highly controversial papers tells me that there ARE people out there that are willing to challenge conventional thinking.

 

[JazzyPaws]

Yes.... yes.. you did mention that.. pardon my ADD brain.. squirrel!!!!!

slides over stronger coffee

It would definitely attract haters!

You only have to read some of the comments made about the author of Uniquely Dangerous to see that..

But I have to applaud her. She took on the status quo.. I'm sure she knew the risks, but the fact that she did and some others that have written some highly controversial papers tells me that there ARE people out there that are willing to challenge conventional thinking.

This is it, we have to challenge things. It won't be easy, and it will certainly be messy, but to invoke change, sometimes a mess is exactly what we need.

 

[K_9River_rat]

A few things I've learned in life:
If nobody gets up and does something, it won't get done.

If you don't try to do something, it won't get done.

When many team up for a common goal, something gets done. Only have to look at a video of Amish people moving an entire barn by simply picking it up and walking with it.

Pyramids, Hoover dam, every sky scraper in the world, and many others.

But if it stays in your head and nothing is even tried.. the outcome is guaranteed..

 

[JazzyPaws]

A few things I've learned in life:
If nobody gets up and does something, it won't get done.

If you don't try to do something, it won't get done.

When many team up for a common goal, something gets done. Only have to look at a video of Amish people moving an entire barn by simply picking it up and walking with it.

Pyramids, Hoover dam, every sky scraper in the world, and many others.

But if it stays in your head and nothing is even tried.. the outcome is guaranteed..

It's just heartbreaking to think of all the potential "sacrifices" along the way. No war is won without, at least some, bloodshed.

 

[K_9River_rat]

It's just heartbreaking to think of all the potential "sacrifices" along the way. No war is won without, at least some, bloodshed.

Very true, but what led me here to this point is that the bloodshed continues while I sit here. I'm not going to put anyone else in this seat because all of us have lives, reasons, and such.

But it lead me to ask "What COULD make a difference, no matter how small?", "What could be done that would have the least exposure to any wrath sure to follow?"

Head on is not the way to take this on. Some have tried and it didn't end well, and also smeared stink on others standing too closely.

Where would anything be decided? Simple.. Courts..

The nice thing about courts is that they start looking bad when they start ignoring scientific facts, and while we know some things to be facts, we have no leg to stand on because it hasn't been documented though scientific process, hence in the court's eyes, just an opinion.

And I know anything thrown in front of a court now is going to be met with heavy resistance, but at least at that point it's in the door. That alone opens the door for discussion, although I'd imagine most of that would again be negative.

But if we use history as an example, the fact is, not all of that talk will be negative, but the box will be opened. Somebody is going to have to scramble to come up with something to oppose it. As soon as they do, you know which domino to try to push over next...

So no.. This is not by any means an overnight thing, and maybe not even in my lifetime..

But it is the only move I can see that has a snowball's chance in hell of making a dent.

 

[K_9River_rat]

I haven't read everything above me but here's a suggestion: we should do our own at home research about consent behaviours. And this doesn't have to just be for sex, it can be anything like consenting to be cleaned or given medication etc. Yes it wouldn't be the most accurate but it could allow us to see patterns in the way dogs,horses,etc consent to things, which could be useful for when we finally find researchers who are willing to do studies on us.

Exactly. I'm also thinking of reaching out to that author of that book.

She left contact information at the back of the book.

I've also seen her in some horse forums getting slammed for even writing the book.

But she did a ton of research, and a lot of those sources are in the book, but I'm sure there's a lot more she found that didn't make the book when you consider that the book was 8 years to research and write.

Can't be sure, and won't know if I don't try, but something gives me the feeling that she'd be easy to approach.