Freedom, and what it means to you.

I loves mares

I loves mares

Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Simple question, simple answers, Please this is not a fighting match, your opinion is free to you as a right given by your birth. Most of us are forgetting this freedom and I'm curious to see what other freedoms shouldn't be forgotten.
 
No such thing. Even your so called "choices" are a product of your personality, which was twisted and shaped by every external influence exerted upon you in your formative years.

It's laughable to call anything freedom when the most important choice of existence, to even be born, is made beyond your control and thrust upon you.
 
dartel said:
No such thing. Even your so called "choices" are a product of your personality, which was twisted and shaped by every external influence exerted upon you in your formative years.

It's laughable to call anything freedom when the most important choice of existence, to even be born, is made beyond your control and thrust upon you.
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but you still have relative freedom of choice in those scenarios - are people in USA are more free then in China?
 
My idea of freedom is very much the same as johnterry4658 to deal with the consequences of my own actions and not being influenced by others. to have the ability to have my own opinions and respect the rights of others to have their own opinions regardless of what they are.
 
dinadina said:
but you still have relative freedom of choice in those scenarios
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No you don't. I'm forever shackled by the damage done to me at an age I can't even remember, and I didn't even know it until I read a pair of psychological evaluations of me from when I was 8 and 9. Evaluations of which the doctor's recommendations for providing me help towards developing "normally" weren't heeded. My entire ability to process the world and feelings correctly was robbed from me and my "choices" to this day are tainted by that damage. No "freedom" of choice.

I may want to act or think differently in situations, but 20 years of being manipulated into a specific form screams from the very core of my being, even 20 years after leaving the environment that did that to me..

And it doesn't have to be as extreme as for me. Everyone's "choices" are shaped by the mores and norms of whatever combinations of large and small "societies" they were raised within. You're shaped to tailor your "choices" within a certain framework.
 
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dartel said:
No you don't. I'm forever shackled by the damage done to me at an age I can't even remember, and I didn't even know it until I read a pair of psychological evaluations of me from when I was 8 and 9. Evaluations of which the doctor's recommendations for providing me help towards developing "normally" weren't heeded. My entire ability to process the world and feelings correctly was robbed from me and my "choices" to this day are tainted by that damage. No "freedom" of choice.

I may want to act or think differently in situations, but 20 years of being manipulated into a specific form screams from the very core of my being, even 20 years after leaving the environment that did that to me..

And it doesn't have to be as extreme as for me. Everyone's "choices" are shaped by the mores and norms of whatever combinations of large and small "societies" they were raised within. You're shaped to tailor your "choices" within a certain framework.
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my condulences to what happened to you - how is that contradicting to my question?


do in china you have the freedom to say everything you want? critique the govermant? own a gun so you can fight govermant if necessary?
 
I find it hilarious that some Americans think their freedom should be unlimited. It's democracy, not anarchy. You have many rights, many responsibilities, but not unlimited freedom.
 
dinadina said:
do in china you have the freedom to say everything you want? critique the govermant? own a gun so you can fight govermant if necessary?
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Prove to me you're "free" to do any of those things in the US. The constitution reads CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW [...], and that's all it means. Congress can't pass a law doing such things, but that doesn't stop any other level of government, private business, or individual citizen/group from enforcing their own "freedom" on you as a group or individual in retaliation for your deviant choice of "freedom". No matter where you live you're bond by the external forces no matter what "freedom" or "chose" to exorcise.

Freedom is a delusion to make the ignorant believe they aren't molded to conform and be controlled by the masses.
 
dartel said:
Prove to me you're "free" to do any of those things in the US. The constitution reads CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW [...], and that's all it means. Congress can't pass a law doing such things, but that doesn't stop any other level of government, private business, or individual citizen/group from enforcing their own "freedom" on you as a group or individual in retaliation for your deviant choice of "freedom". No matter where you live you're bond by the external forces no matter what "freedom" or "chose" to exorcise.

Freedom is a delusion to make the ignorant believe they aren't molded to conform and be controlled by the masses.
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that case you are stating - that was the issue in the civil war
one side used force to increase freedoms of a group who was bond by another group - and that is why the first and second amendment exists by the way, the funding fathers knew that people want to take control in anyway possible so you have people who want to make america restricted like china and americans have the free will to decide if they would let it hapen
 
dinadina said:
that case you are stating - that was the issue in the civil war
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No. The civil war was bullshit government forcing those who CHOSE to no longer be governed by that government to remain governed by it. E.G. the government forcibly restricted the so called freedom you seem to think it instead upheld.
 
no... the civil war was about the confederate wanting to keep slavery and the other side thinking that slavery steals the slaves the right to be free
 
You should recheck your history. Slavery was a minor issue in the instigation of the civil war. The North could have very well just let the South go their separate way then withheld any trade and/or aid if they didn't like the continued use of slavery in that new country, but no, they could not accept the audacity that half the country would dare to declare they are no longer under their authority and worse no longer a viable source for resources money and power. To say nothing of the international blackeye that would result from the revelation that this "great" young nation couldn't even keep itself together for 100 years.
 
dartel said:
You should recheck your history. Slavery was a minor issue in the instigation of the civil war. The North could have very well just let the South go their separate way then withheld any trade and/or aid if they didn't like the continued use of slavery in that new country, but no, they could not accept the audacity that half the country would dare to declare they are no longer under their authority and worse no longer a viable source for resources money and power. To say nothing of the international blackeye that would result from the revelation that this "great" young nation couldn't even keep itself together for 100 years.
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1. people back then did not care about international blackeyes - there was no internet back then, no fast communications
2. slavery was opposed by the half of the funding funders since the begining because they saw black people as human being created in the image of god and there for deserve thier rights , but others were pro slavery, so to find common ground there was compremise which graduly got bigger with giving black people more rights - that issue with probebly others was reason to fight in order to free a group of people, not to bring more restrictions

everything you mentioned still does not contradict my point that you have freedoms within your situation - alot of chineese choose to flee china in order not to be under chinese communist control - it is a freedom they have within an extremly authoritrian regim and they do that in order to increase the amount of freedom they have because in america you have more freedoms - so you are free, some are lucky to born into a relativly free society and they are more free - some earn that freedom by immigrating to the west or fighting for it in thier countries
 
JazzyJerk said:
I find it hilarious that some Americans think their freedom should be unlimited. It's democracy, not anarchy. You have many rights, many responsibilities, but not unlimited freedom.
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If your freedom isn't absolute then you only live with mere privileges. That isn't freedom.
 
true freedom would eventually turn into anarchy so my thought-process is that there is no "real" freedom.

with that said, freedom to me is letting me do whatever the hell i want as long as i don't violate any laws and show some grace if i did violate some laws i was not aware of. above and beyond this, just be happy if you live in a better country when it comes to "freedom" than the next person. i.e. China vs USA or Canada vs USA or Afghanistan vs USA.
 
dartel said:
No you don't. I'm forever shackled by the damage done to me at an age I can't even remember, and I didn't even know it until I read a pair of psychological evaluations of me from when I was 8 and 9. Evaluations of which the doctor's recommendations for providing me help towards developing "normally" weren't heeded. My entire ability to process the world and feelings correctly was robbed from me and my "choices" to this day are tainted by that damage. No "freedom" of choice.

I may want to act or think differently in situations, but 20 years of being manipulated into a specific form screams from the very core of my being, even 20 years after leaving the environment that did that to me..

And it doesn't have to be as extreme as for me. Everyone's "choices" are shaped by the mores and norms of whatever combinations of large and small "societies" they were raised within. You're shaped to tailor your "choices" within a certain framework.
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We are shaped by outside forces, too, but there is no reason why you yourself can't be another force that shapes you. Realize that while you can't choose everything, you still have choices. Take control of your life.

If you feel like any choice that you make would be made because you were molded to make that choice by outside forces in your past so that your choice would still by theirs by proxy, then I'd recommend to let a coin toss decide some decisions for you as an exercise. A coin toss may not yet assure yourself of having real autonomy, but it should help you realize that no one in your past has control over these decisions. You can free yourselves from their influence in your decisions.
 
Freedom to me is the ability to pursue happiness and fulfillment without undue interference by any other person or governing body. There's a lot of nuance and what if's of course but that's the core of it.
 
Personaly i think that freedom will allways be compared to 'others'.
-There where kids who were allowed to go to bed later.
-There are coworkers that are allowed to stop working before me.
-Some people have open relationships.

A few examples of others with more freedom. And i can go on and on and on.
But as long as we compare out freedom with other people, we allways find limits in our own freedom.
 
Applejax said:
The freedom of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forego ones own
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Having the freedom to offend includes the freedom to destroy... And it ceases to be freedom once you destroy something that belongs to someone else.
 
I'd say freedom in it's most basic form is the ability to carry out one's desires without restriction of any social, physical or moral kind but such a situation would only work wherein the freeman lives in isolation with no one to counter or object to their decisions (which is paradoxical seeing as you need other people to carry out your desires. Human desires tend to be related to human interaction)
So a more realistic definition would be to act to the limit of ones agency in so much as it does not infringe on the agency and security of others, all this with a legal or moral system that does not impose any unnecessary restriction on conduct, espousing only those that are necessary for peaceful and just human interaction.
 
The ability to do whatever you want. Perfect freedom is therefore by definition impossible (physics in the first place) and even if it was, some freedom can't be exercised without infringing on other's freedom. So the best we can have, globally speaking, is equal rights distributing that freedom relatively evenly. With full respect to consequences of course.
 
petsalad21 said:
I'd say freedom in it's most basic form is the ability to carry out one's desires without restriction of any social, physical or moral kind but such a situation would only work wherein the freeman lives in isolation with no one to counter or object to their decisions (which is paradoxical seeing as you need other people to carry out your desires. Human desires tend to be related to human interaction)
So a more realistic definition would be to act to the limit of ones agency in so much as it does not infringe on the agency and security of others, all this with a legal or moral system that does not impose any unnecessary restriction on conduct, espousing only those that are necessary for peaceful and just human interaction.
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Finally some common sense!
 
Throwing away freedom to get more freedom is pretty much society.

In a perfect society with no jobs needed to function thats perfect freedom having no need of any job or cost.
 
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